Episode 5 - Redemption, Loot, and Solana

Jamie: 0:00

The hosts of Two Bored Apes are not registered investment advisors. The podcast is for entertainment and informational purposes only. Nothing said on it should be construed as investment advice. On this week's episode of Two Bored Apes, we talk about an artblocks redemption story, the current NFT bear market, the NFT loot project, open sea royalties and Solana

Intro: 0:23

Two Bored Apes, talking NFT's, De-fi, and some random stuff! uh uh uh uh Two Bored Apes, talking NFT's, De-fi, and some random stuff! uh uh uh uh

Jamie: 0:42

Welcome to episode five of Two Bored Apes. I'm your host, Jaime and I'm here with my friend Roy. Roy, how are you doing?

Roy: 0:49

I'm doing well. I'm doing well. I'm very full. I just got back, you know, an hour ago from big dinner. And, you know, his prime podcasting state of mind. But I'm doing well. How are you?

Jamie: 1:02

I'm doing well as well. Well, as well. Well, as well as well. Now this dinner that you just had, it is not at the restaurant that I recommended to you even though you are in the vicinity of it. Is that correct?

Roy: 1:13

No. So the restaurant you recommended was louder in Santa Rini is the one you're thinking of? That is yeah, we are still in making us. So different Greek island.

Jamie: 1:23

It's still close. I mean, if you're somewhere on the globe, you can almost not be closer to louder than you are right now.

Roy: 1:30

Well, no, we could be we're gonna be much closer all my days. Yeah. Well, that's true. But this is very interesting.

Jamie: 1:37

If you were dropped randomly on the earth somewhere, there'd be like a 99.98 chance that you'd be further away than you are now. So you're very close. Sure. What now what is this podcast about?

Roy: 1:50

Apes, NFT's, defi...

Jamie: 1:53

not not where you had dinner and how close it is to a place that I recommended you have dinner?

Roy: 1:59

Well, random stuff and stuff.

Jamie: 2:03

Yeah. I think people well, people like all of it. But let's let's get into NFT's before we get to sorry.

Roy: 2:10

Yeah, we have plenty of time.

Jamie: 2:11

Let's get some momentum and get on the track before we get off the track. Okay. By the way, I'm looking here at our list of topics. And the first one is something that has nothing to do with emptiness. So let's skip that one. And maybe we could go to a later yeah,

Roy: 2:27

let's start with number two.

Jamie: 2:30

Okay, let's talk about C hams. What is a C ham? Right.

Roy: 2:33

So a C ham is a colloquial name given for an NFT a meme name that the NFT is given the name to

Jamie: 2:45

the empty as a pretty bad sound.

Roy: 2:47

Yeah. Anyway, seehams are also known as sailor bots. Sailor bots.

Jamie: 2:52

That's what they're officially called is sailor,

Roy: 2:54

Sailor bot. It was a what is a project on top looks a factory project. And the there's a whole history and controversy behind it. And it's sort of turned into this this meme project. And I mean, it really has taken on a life of its own. They were minted. I want to say like six weeks ago, maybe three months ago. Four feels

Jamie: 3:16

like more like two months to me feels like five years. But yeah, definitely six weeks seems too soon.

Roy: 3:21

Yeah. Anyway, so somewhere around that timeframe. For point oh eight. They sold out kind of very quickly for factory project at that time, because I think it was like sort of as our blocks was really that's so

Jamie: 3:33

crazy. Remember back when things didn't just immediately sell

Roy: 3:36

on a plot there. There was like five all the open projects. I think so

Jamie: 3:40

crazy. It was a playground project that was just open for months.

Roy: 3:43

Yeah. No multiple playground projects open for a month. Really the only one I can think of was

Jamie: 3:47

paper Armada. But I guess there could have been other hieroglyphs. Oh, is that a playground?

Roy: 3:53

I believe so. And also Gen three. Oh, right. Right, right. Yeah. Yeah, it was crazy. Anyway, back to a sailboat. So they rented out a point oh, eight. And I think that was the first project that had just a ton of people throwing in because they saw up looks been crazy. You know, it was a few weeks off to finanzas and the the big auction at Sotheby's. And there they thought that you know our blocks just meant something instant profit, which it was the case for curated but factory and playground not so much because as we just mentioned there were a bunch of projects that hadn't been sold out so

Jamie: 4:29

factory almost not at all like I can't even think of almost any factory projects back then. That were really selling for appreciably above mint price. Yeah, I mean, there was probably one or two but I cannot think of a single one. That was like that is a valuable project.

Roy: 4:46

Yeah, it was there were definitely there were a couple but they weren't like crazily above

Jamie: 4:51

right. Maybe two or three times my prices Yeah.

Roy: 4:54

Which I mean so good but not anyway. So we bought they rented out point oh eight and I think a lot Have people immediately tried to flip it and then there just wasn't a secondary market for it? Because I mean, 750 minutes at that time was kind of a lot. And it just, I guess, aesthetically speaking, they they looked quite similar to one another. And, I mean,

Jamie: 5:17

it's also sort of a fun look. It's kind of a little fun, silly. Not a very, like, high end. real serious art. Art.

Roy: 5:28

Yes. It's, I mean, now it has turned into a meme. And you can say that it's like, it looks Mimi. And but at the time, it was obviously launched as sort of a serious project, but it Yeah, it's very whimsical. And I mean, odd is objective, but I would say objectively, it's just not.

Jamie: 5:44

Yeah, I mean, there's like a smiling face on them. Yeah, it's not wearing

Roy: 5:47

sunglasses and right, yeah. Anyway, they sold out and then sort of immediately the price tanked 2.0 3.4 with the floor, just because there weren't enough buyers on secondary. And they sort of sat that way for who knows a week to three for some amount of time. That wasn't obscenely long. And then there was this controversy that came out. Where basically would

Jamie: 6:11

not be a good historian. Yeah, one week.

Roy: 6:14

I mean, four years ago. Crypto time I mean, who knows? Really? It's a It's crazy.

Jamie: 6:24

Day. Do you remember in Dragonball Z when they would go in like that hyperbaric chamber? And they would know that was gravity? Not time? Right? Yeah.

Roy: 6:32

So he would go through do push ups to five times gravity and 10 than 100. And I was thinking

Jamie: 6:37

it was time nevermind, carry on this

Roy: 6:39

example. Was

Jamie: 6:44

you're talking about how the controller was not? Well, you hadn't quite got there? No. Yeah.

Roy: 6:49

So I was just about earlier. Yeah, the floor wasn't doing much. And then say a few weeks after the drop, it came out. And it was sort of discovered that the OS

Jamie: 7:00

in Block Talk at the time that it was starting to be discovered,

Roy: 7:04

well, maybe you wrote slanted things I wasn't, I wasn't?

Jamie: 7:06

Well, basically, what happened was that the art was seemingly stolen from somebody else. And the person who took the art did not properly license or use the license that the original artists had intended. I can't actually remember all the details, because there was something where like, there was certainty that something was wrong, but they were doing more research to find out if if there was even more wrong with it, I can't really remember that. But then, you know, as they investigated, they found out Yes, like all of the allegations that we were worried about, are true. And what basically was found is that the supposed artists who brought it to art blocks, had basically 99% copied this art from another generative artist, and then I think, maybe slapped the sunglasses on top, or some very, very, very minor adjustment, and was taking the credit for it and the money for it. And this was a pretty big deal. Because, you know, art box holds itself up as a esteemed establishment that is, you know, vetting the artists and all of that sort of thing. So to have this slip through was a very bad thing. And they got into contact with the original artist, as well as the fraudulent artist and just started trying to rectify things and make things right, pretty much immediately. And then they came to some sort of agreement, where I think the basically fraudulent artist, for lack of a better word, was able to keep what they made for the original mints. But then the royalties we're gonna switch over to, I can't actually remember how the finances were resolved of it, but basically, you know, art blocks, made a discord announcement as to what had happened, and what they were going to do going forward. And we're very sort of open about it. And this kind of, you know, as we were finding this out, it was very bad for the already low floor of it, because it seemed like, maybe it's worthless now. But then it has sort of become this redemption story and phoenix rising out of the ashes type thing. And the actual artist has now become a very welcomed member into the art blocks community, and people are super supportive of him and he's happy that they're supportive of them, and it's just become a very popular project almost like The POA PS, that what is that

Roy: 10:03

the proof of attendance critical?

Jamie: 10:06

Yeah, so that's basically just a thing in NFT space where you get this thing that certifies you were there when this happened. And to own a sailboat was starting to become a sort of de facto artbox POA payee, sort of in the way that's squiggles are, it was sort of becoming a little bit like that in terms of being a mascot. And then this character, Vincent van Gogh, who we've talked about before, who was basically just a whale who started splashing around big in art blocks was, he would make a huge purchase of one of the really high end art blocks projects, and people in Block Talk would go nuts, and then he would basically immediately follow it with a sale robot purchase. And that that was sort of what got us to where we are today.

Roy: 10:54

Yeah, that pretty much sums up how I remember,

Jamie: 10:57

I wish I could remember better the way that they actually did sort of rectify the situation and settle it financially. But so the way my brain doesn't have

Roy: 11:07

that the way I remember it is that it was sort of a two step process where originally, it was announced that the artist who released the copy on our blocks, or who stole the art had come to some agreement with the original artist. And they sort of were both happy with it. And then they organized without blocks that going forward, the royalties will be paid to the original artist. But then it sort of came out a little bit later that the original artist, I'm going to try and pronounce his name. Che you were let me think he he didn't understand the full extent of like the the money that the person who released his art, actually.

Jamie: 11:58

Oh, yeah. So he's like, I'll give you $2,000 Yeah, yeah. So he was happy.

Roy: 12:01

But then when he found out Oh, hang on, he just sold out 750 minutes at point oh, eight. That's that's so much money in, in art worlds, it will enter the world. He was a bit off put. And then so our blocks got involved again. And they sort of renegotiated or came to a new arrangement, which, at the end of that everyone was extremely happy. I think our blocks can't remember exactly either. But I think that they said that the percentage that art blocks got from it was going either to a charity or to the original artist. And a percentage of secondary sales may be the same. But the the gist of it is basically the same as you said. People in the Aplex community started rallying behind the original artist who had his work stolen and started supporting him and buying the sailboats, because they realized that, you know, he would be getting a percent of secondary market sales going forward. And then he was being active in the community now and he was just he really embraced the whole community. And it really became this as you said, redemption.

Jamie: 13:03

It was a rolling thing to be locked talk as he as he found his way there. Yeah. And as a community rallied behind him. Yeah. And he was he also he was just like a, I don't want to say nothing artists, but somebody who was just kind of making art because they love to art and and like, almost all artists have been through all of human history, not financially successful as a result of it. And then to find out that his work had been appropriated to this art community that really rewards artists financially, and that now he was going to be rewarded financially for this art was, like, very exciting for him. Yeah.

Roy: 13:42

And, yeah, it's sort of become this. Just this meme almost, but like this beacon of the art blogs, community buying and owning a sailboat. And because people have wanted them so much, and the community has rallied behind them so much. And because Vincent van dough was buying one after all these purchases, and a few other people started buying them off with the big purchases. The price has just gone up astronomically. I mean, I think some The floor is somewhere between 10 and 15 eath now, which is just mind blowing. Yeah,

Jamie: 14:16

I think and it got up to like maybe, almost 20 For but yeah, it

Roy: 14:19

touched her and 20, maybe even slightly higher. I mean, for a factory project at all to have a floor of this. This amount, let alone one with 750 minutes, let alone one that had a floor point or three at one point. It's just Yeah, it's also crazy. It's unprecedented, I think.

Jamie: 14:36

Now, do you know why they're called Sea hams? Do you know about that part of the meme?

Roy: 14:40

I sumser. The It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia, Maine, right. So

Jamie: 14:45

they've basically thought that it vaguely looked like a floating ham, which was a part of an episode of It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia. I believe the episodes called the gang goes to the Jersey Shore. I'm a big fan of the show. Maybe I'll get a podcast But anyway, um, two of the characters are like stranded on the ocean and then a ham floats by it's called a rum ham. And and the sort of the main character of the sailor box and if T vaguely looks like a floating ham it is an object floating in water and you know, and it's got a bit of a ham shaped to it.

Roy: 15:19

Yeah. Yeah, it's just as great story and meme in the Xbox community. And I guess it's sort of culminated into this. What would you say this? What am I trying to say?

Jamie: 15:36

This, you have to give me more before I can help you finish the sentence. This culminated in a

Roy: 15:42

in a I guess, like a community that's formed around this see hams, I think they have their own discord now. And the odd is che U has now launched his own project, generative art project, not on our blocks, so separate drop blocks, but it's basically he is embracing the the sea hams and he said that he's basically anyone who earns a sea ham will have access to minting at sort of a discounted price. And then there'll be public say later,

Jamie: 16:08

it's it's a little bit like that blocks of art thing that we talked about the other it is maybe episode three, I think

Roy: 16:13

he's adding utility to his NFT's, which is right. Great to see.

Jamie: 16:20

And that dropped today, which is sort of why we're talking about that, right? Yes.

Roy: 16:23

Did you? You have one see him? Right.

Jamie: 16:26

I have one see him that I minted and never sold?

Roy: 16:29

And did you mean your the new projects called crypto poachy?

Jamie: 16:35

I did not I was I was traveling today. I think I may be checked in the morning and gas prices were high. But maybe I didn't even I'm actually not. It's definitely not true. I checked in the morning because I wanted to make my Royal Society of players has sort of a companion thing that you could meant now. So I was doing that because it was crazy, crazy gas last night, but a bit more reasonable this morning. So I did that. And then basically packed up and we were traveling from Nice, France to Porto, Portugal today. And we basically just got to the Airbnb and started recording. And I'm going to try and probably wait until the East Coast of the United States is asleep to try and meet mine because I think gas is too expensive right now. Yeah, gas has been kind of crazy. It's been very crazy. That's that's something we can talk about. We can talk about this NFT bear market plus the gas and how we think they're related. That's sort of next on our topic list.

Roy: 17:28

Sure. I mean, I think there's not too much else to say about the the C hems is the the No, I mean, it's a great story. I think that there's a really good blog post that a friend of ours wrote sort of describing the whole, the whole story behind it. And we'll post a link to that in the show notes. If anyone wants to read some more. Yeah,

Jamie: 17:47

it's on their floors cafe website, which is a great resource that people should be using anyway. And yeah, we'll link to it.

Roy: 17:54

Alright, so next on the list. bear market three want to talk about? I mean, I guess we would have to specify NFT. bear market because crypto. And even

Jamie: 18:06

though well, people know what they're getting with this podcast. I guess your listeners don't really? Yeah. But I guess that is related, though, right. Because, theoretically, the bull market in cryptocurrencies has made gas more expensive, and, you know, equally priced in FFTs, more expensive. So it has just made it harder for prices to keep pumping or to maintain the way they had been. And we're seeing a pretty big sell off and a lot of stuff. Yeah, I

Roy: 18:41

definitely think there's a correlation there. On all those fronts, it's hard to know, you know, to what extent I mean, there's so many things. Yes. Go.

Jamie: 18:51

There's also like, the idea that, you know, you had the Munich Yacht Club, which soaked up a lot of free liquidity from the NFT marketplace. And then, pretty quick, on the heels of that we had this whole loot thing. Yeah. Which is insane. And we're going to get into that, which has sucked up a bunch of more liquidity. And then it's just, you know, we you have a supply and demand thing. And there we've just got two big new things of supply that have eaten up a lot of the financial or let's say, what, what would they be, they're eating up the financial supply, which doesn't allow for there to be supply, aka demand for the other projects. Basically, there's a finite amount of money from people that want to invest in entities and a bunch of it went to these two things, which has meant that a lot of other projects can't support it. I think another thing we've seen, and you can sort of see this in like current listed price versus last sold price. A lot of people who were into Kryptos and defy have been in getting more and more into NFT's, but trading them much more purely like cryptocurrencies and just going, I'm going to buy it at this price, and I'm going to try to sell it for 20% More than that price, not realizing that doesn't really work that way in NFT's even though, you know, often that's been a thing that you can do. And then they're just getting scared of having this big, illiquid asset, and undercutting the floor, and undercutting even their own purchase price pretty quickly. And, you know, then that creates some fear and other people, and so on and so forth.

Roy: 20:35

Yeah, I think we've definitely been seeing some of that. And, I mean, specifically with the loot projects, part of their whole appeal is that there's no secondary market fee aside from the open sci fi, so people can like aggressively, sort of trade them and not get burned too much. But then if they take that same sort of approach to other projects, where there might be a five, seven 10% fee, then it sort of doesn't really work as well, all these quick flips.

Jamie: 21:04

Yeah, and the other thing with the loop project, which I guess we're sort of naturally transitioning into here, is that it's so simple. And it's kind of meant to be sort of a decentralized base almost, that people build on top of, that, it's so easy to make something that's completely functionally equivalent to it, that there's been a lot of copycat projects immediately. And because literally, nothing has been built on top of it, basically, I mean, especially relative to a price that it's been very easy to just see a massive supply increase. And, you know, people sort of lose it, like it's sort of an interesting thing because the people's attention spans and NFT's are so short. And the idea of this loop project was so long term that if it was ever to actually be worth the values that it immediately started trading with, you're looking at something that that isn't going to come into that valuation until long long into the future. And you know, NFT memories are like 36 hours long maximum Yeah, and so people you know, there's already been like three boom and bust cycles of the original loot project and they got blue and X loot and all this maybe we should describe what loot is because you should you should cuz you know better than me, I think

Roy: 22:27

I will do my best because I have not been paying super close attention to it. But yes, probably more than you. So loot is a project that was created by the same person who created blit maps. Dom is his his name. And he basically created 8000. NFT's and they're what each NFT is, is it's a black background and a list of words written in white text. And they're sort of words that you might find in say, like a role playing game dungeons and dragons items, specifically, right? Ah, yes, items,

Jamie: 23:11

so you don't get all basically yeah, equippable items, you

Roy: 23:14

could get a dagger, you could get divine verbs a wand, a spell book, these types of things. You don't gauntlets. A dragon scale things leather skin leather things belt? Yup.

Jamie: 23:29

I'm gonna keep going.

Roy: 23:30

I think you shouldn't.

Jamie: 23:32

Racers,

Roy: 23:33

okay, anyway, you get you get the rent and the randomize the stored on chain. And that was sort of it. He said, I'm just gonna release this, they're free to claim you just go to the he's posted a tweet with a link to the contract. No one profits from it, except the miners. So you basically pay gas, you get the NFT. And you can do whatever you want with it, you can do nothing. You can band together with other people and sort of start to create something out of these lists of words, it's really up to people's imaginations. But because it's all stored on chain, the, I guess the infer the very basic building blocks or infrastructure was there that people can build upon. And the whole theory of the whole idea is that it's sort of a bottom up approach where you have these words, and then whatever the community wants to make of them is sort of where the value will come from. And, you know, people, I guess immediately or somewhat immediately, some people started seeing the, I guess, appeal in this and they liked that it was free to claim. They like that there was no secondary market fee, like no one was profiting from it. Dom who created it, he put it out there and then it's just fully decentralized. It's out of his hands. What the community does with it is, I say fully decentralized, like that, at least in the first few days. He was still in the discord and sort of giving his opinion and people looked up to him, obviously But the community could have done whatever they wanted and they have done whatever they wanted. And so, some of the things that people have decided to do is they they let's say everyone who had a certain item for example, a katana or divine verb, they started saying alright, we're gonna form a guild or we're gonna form a club or Greaves Yes, whatever item you make whatever item it is, if anyone who had that item said alright, we're just gonna Band Together they created a discord group they created a guild they decided to try and

Jamie: 25:34

figure out how they started leather Helm.

Roy: 25:37

This is the rest of the podcast now Jamie's gonna be listing things. He's gonna run out eventually.

Jamie: 25:42

Hey, do you remember stones of Jordan? No, what's that? was like a really famous ring and Diablo? Um,

Roy: 25:50

no, I remember the item that made you that allowed you to duplicate things.

Jamie: 25:55

I think that was related to that. Maybe I thought maybe stones Jordan was like the most popular thing to do.

Roy: 26:01

Maybe I was more

Jamie: 26:03

played Diablo. Yeah.

Roy: 26:05

And I was

Jamie: 26:06

actually this too. Let's pause right here Diablo two that is the game that I was playing when I drank my own pee accidentally.

Roy: 26:18

I do remember the story.

Jamie: 26:20

I was maybe like 14 or something and it was the summer we

Roy: 26:24

drank your MP for the first time we'll accidentally

Jamie: 26:28

accidentally okay so it was like has it happened? It didn't become a habit. I don't know why I'm so freely just yeah sharing this other podcast but I was just playing hours and hours and hours of the game had a cup that I drag this is so so embarrassing to be sharing on the podcast without any prompting. But this cup is

Roy: 26:49

basically interrupted me I was going on about

Jamie: 26:53

but now I've started and I got to finish Yeah, and I didn't I didn't have time to go to the bathroom you know there's loot to be gained a loop that circles back. I should we should have cut this up. But I peed in the cup put it down kept playing for another two hours forgot there was a cup of pice and thought it was my drank and took us at the end. I split it out. I was horrifying. Fit. Okay,

Roy: 27:19

that's what this little warm.

Jamie: 27:23

It was not cold. I'll tell you that much.

Roy: 27:26

Oh, boy. All right. Well, thanks for sharing.

Jamie: 27:29

Oh boy, was that a fun game though? Holy cow. Did I put a lot hours into

Roy: 27:38

that? It was fun. Bruins game I played that for like, I never played her in year nine a year 10 of high school just Well, I did. It was a lot of fun, though.

Jamie: 27:47

Now shall we talk about the like the crazy prices that this loot got to because as it sounds, as we're talking about it right now, it seems a little bit reasonable. But the thing that has made it so talked about and copied and floated by some and loved by others, it's just how astronomical the prices got to almost immediately.

Roy: 28:09

Yes, but yeah, I mean, it was very quickly, but it's so they will claim for free. And then they started selling on secondary for around point oh eight. And they were there for a couple of days. So it didn't immediately just skyrocket. But once it started taking off, it was just sort of this parabolic rise where it was pointing 7.81 day, next day, it was one one and a half. Next day, it was three. And the next day it was like 15/8 is the full price and there was sales much, much higher. All right, for an

Jamie: 28:41

NFT. That is a lot of words, that is theoretically usable in a thing that does not exist.

Roy: 28:49

Basically. It all the I guess the reason it was priced so high or selling so high is that the people buying it. Were believing that in the future. The people, I guess, incentivized to build on these words and on dilute would create something so significant and so big. And so you really believe that though? Do I believe that they will build something that they believe

Jamie: 29:18

that I think it's it's just sort of circles back to that thing where people are just treating it like swing trading cryptocurrencies where they go, this is going up fast. I can buy it now and sell it soon. For more, I think I think it's been almost all of it was that?

Roy: 29:33

Ah, I'm not sure I would say that, I think. Yeah, I think early on, a lot of the people buying it, were probably buying it because they believed in it. But then obviously right.

Jamie: 29:44

But then then once you get to the point where you know it's $8,000 for 110 $1,000 For one, it seems to me like any reasoned analysis of how much value is actually going to be built on top of this. And how far into the future it would have to be for that value to get made? It seems to me like, there's it's just hopium, or just trying to sell it to the next person that wants to buy it at that point. I mean, at what, at what point? Is it only a insane financial product that people are just hoping to sell to the next person? Because when you get to 20, you're talking about what? $80,000 for one of these, like, if it's 250,000? Are we at a point where we go, okay, obviously, they don't think that much value is going to come to a million, like, where does it just become a ludicrous thing that that people can't actually mean this? Oh, ludicrous. I know. But but so that's, that's, to me. Why it seems like it sort of pretty quickly, once it started getting parabolic, just became a thing that people didn't want to miss out on, and wanted to be able to sell for more in the future. I mean, I mean, if you really, if you really believe in in the building on top of it stuff, why not just build something rather than them buying this? I'm not sure about that.

Roy: 31:12

I think the fact that it was the other thing was a big deal.

Jamie: 31:16

Right? Well, but then you have blue, which is also doing very well now financially, it is, but it's not nearly as well, not nearly the same. Yeah. Um, the other thing is, like, why, why do you need the expensive NFT at the bottom, to build all this value? Why can't you sort of build the value and then have NFT's that sort of fit into an actual thing? I mean, I guess, because you're trying to up end it. But I just it's, it seems like it got so out of hand with the price relative to how little had been built on top of it. I mean, if you if you if you're calculating it and sort of man hours or human hours, how much has actually been built on it know, very, very little relative to those astronomical prices.

Roy: 32:04

I agree. But I think it's, it just is. So it's almost a paradigm shift compared to basically every other project that is launched. And if he brought that is launched, where they're all launched by a centralized entity, there's a team and they're all They're selling it for starters, for pointer 5.1 point two even that has meant a

Jamie: 32:27

lot of free projects, though. Let's let's have a look.

Roy: 32:31

But let's compare it to the ones that are trying to build games I think, I can't think of a single free project that's saying we're gonna build a game we're gonna build a you know, what, are they trying

Jamie: 32:39

to build the game? Because Don was saying, do whatever you want

Roy: 32:42

with it, it is do whatever you want. And who who is saying

Jamie: 32:45

build a game with it if there's no central authority.

Roy: 32:50

I mean, it's the decentralized community. It's everyone who has bought loot, and is now in the discord saying, hey, let's build a game who's now using their loot to vote on proposals. There's a forum set up where people are saying, what do we want to do with loot?

Jamie: 33:03

Now, I, I'm not in it, I missed out on it, basically. But is, is there like greater voting rights for any of the loot than others? Because obviously, we've seen some huge sales for basically, words that represent items that are sort of more rare, but those don't actually have more like voting power in

Roy: 33:24

one loop equals one vote. Okay, is basically how it is. And

Jamie: 33:29

yeah, I mean, there's still 8000 Exactly right.

Roy: 33:33

I believe so originally, maybe it's 1008.

Jamie: 33:36

Yeah, there's so much to it, though. Because like, then he did like synthetic glue. And then there's like this neon that he made? That's like 1.3 million of them? Yeah, I mean, I know very little. They've

Roy: 33:45

been a lot of expansions and sort of copycats, and derivatives and copycats

Jamie: 33:53

of copycats, parodies, charities, I saw Andy Milonakis did a parody one where it's just grocery lists.

Roy: 33:59

I mean, yeah, it's just sort of spawned this whole movement, but it comes back to loot was the first and right it's I think, being the first in crypto has always proved valuable for many reasons. But I think that's part of why people are willing

Jamie: 34:15

to, I think, yeah, but when you look at like these very early NFT projects, it seems like which ones really take off and which ones don't, isn't just purely a timeline thing like a theory of for instance, rare peppers, that kind of thing are earlier than crypto punks and and worth almost nothing, especially as compared to crypto punks.

Roy: 34:39

That's true. I think it's it's not just being first but I think being first slash being early has value.

Jamie: 34:47

Yeah. Yeah, but those are first in ERP spec early and they don't have value. I guess they have some value. But yeah, not as much as these brand new words.

Roy: 34:59

No Well, yeah, I mean in the value is what the market is willing to pay for it basically at the end of the day, and the market has

Jamie: 35:06

deemed that's the price, I would say not the value.

Roy: 35:09

Okay. The Yeah, I mean, we're getting into,

Jamie: 35:14

that's what Warren Buffett says right? He says, value is what you get price is what you pay.

Roy: 35:21

Okay, well, then the value in all these NFT's is just a little.

Jamie: 35:26

I mean, I think it I think maybe it is for this, but it is an interesting thing where, you know, what, what is the, it's sort of a recursive thing where like, if people do believe in it, and people do value it and want its value to come to fruition, they can create, they can literally create at least some of the value just by virtue of caring about it. Like if we all decided, you know, the slacker duck pond was cool. It would, it would have more value, if we decided to make stuff with them. It would make their value go up.

Roy: 35:57

Yes, that's exactly what's happening in most of the NFT community, like we saw with the pudgy penguins, they were basically worthless. And then a bunch of people just decided, hey, these cute, let's make these valuable, we liked them. And they're now valuable, and it's sort of a self fulfilling prophecy. Were they? Now they're valuable, you can't really well, now the I mean, now, now they cost a lot. I mean, I don't know if you would say they have value. I mean, Penguin JPEGs. But right. Anyway, there is cool stuff being built on top of loot. And I think it's just fun to see. I mean, you get a bunch of people who their only incentive, really to build is that they own some loot, and they want the loot project to succeed. And so they will, I mean, there's programmers and as artists, and as all sorts of people offering up I saw somebody

Jamie: 36:53

did some sort of, I think it was like a machine learning thing where it would basically take the list of words, and then generate an image to represent them, which was

Roy: 37:02

kind of cool. Yeah, I mean, it's just cool seeing this stuff football, maybe not

Jamie: 37:06

worth $80,000 Probably not her per looters, whatever the price is, but I think that's a chance just Yeah,

Roy: 37:15

but I mean, then someone crazy that someone created loot gold, or adventure gold, or Oh, yeah, a GLD GLD or an ERC 20. token, which, effectively, anyone who had a loot could claim 10,000 A GLD. And the market price for that at the moment is like $5.30 or something. So that's effectively$53,000 AirDrop to anyone who had loot it. Did

Jamie: 37:41

you do that? Right? You get 10,000? I mean, they're worth $5.30 each? Yep. Okay.

Roy: 37:46

It's ludicrous. It is. Yeah, that is ludicrous. Utterly ludicrous. And I mean, it got up to about $7.20 at one point. And so I mean, this is this is a market now separate from loot. Anyone can buy and sell the GLD token, it's on uni swap. It's I think it's on sushi swap. And you don't need to own loot to buy and sell it. And so people are trading it like any other crypto token.

Jamie: 38:10

And it's just it's there's 10,000 For every loot, and there will never be more as is the story we're told.

Roy: 38:18

No, I think that there will be more that there's talk of missionary? Yes. I haven't dug into the specifics of it. I think they're talking about how there might be seasons of the game or seasons of the gold. Where if you have loot, maybe for season two yoga drops on a mountain and then I mean, now there's this em loot, which is more loot, which is another type of loot that was dropped or Yeah, created by Dom. Were basically I think there's like 1.3 million.

Jamie: 38:48

batter will be 1.3 million. It's like goes up as Aetherium No,

Roy: 38:54

or something currently is up to 1.3 million able to be claimed and then it continues to go up beyond that. So okay, maybe I misread that. Yeah, I mean, the theory, the idea was that a bunch of these other projects had popped up saying, oh, there's X loot saying, Hey, we're just going to create more loot, extended loot, like 8000 16,000 There's another 8000 But that's sort of a small band aid solution, whereas synthetic loot or M M loot more loot is sort of a solution was like Well, hey, there's a million now that should be enough for the entire market. Anyone who wants loot can get it for free claimed plus just pay gas. And as more theorem blocks are mined, there's going to be more and more so there's just it should always be enough. And then now like the blue community is deciding, well does anyone who have Emmylou do they get to claim some adventure gold and I think the latest proposal I saw which the community seem to like was yes, maybe they can claim like five or 10 per employee. So they get some they get some 10,000 instead of 10,000 Because

Jamie: 39:52

that seems like so much. I mean, it is so much

Roy: 39:55

less or much less but this 1.3 million and infinite it also an infinite amount of amyloid that can be created, whereas there was 1000. Yeah. So, I mean, they couldn't make a true high otherwise, people would just be claiming paying the gas and then dumping it and instantly profiting and completely tanking the price of the venture gold. And obviously the the people who earn gold and own loot, the people

Jamie: 40:22

who are able to vote on it are not interested in that. Correct. Yeah.

Roy: 40:25

But there's also I mean, it's an interesting situation now, which has occurred, where the people who own loot and the people who own the adventure gold, their incentives are no longer lined because a lot of people who have loot sold their gold. And so there's discussion over whether I mean, originally, the adventure gold was created to be sort of, I think, a utility token for the whole loot universe, but also a government governance token. And now people like well, people who own the gold shouldn't be able to vote on what happens with loot, because they may have no loot or they may have. Yeah, I mean, basically, people who have a lot of gold can have no loot, and people who have a lot of loot can have no gold and their incentives are not necessarily aligned. So they're trying to figure out that it's just, it's a lot of stuff to figure out. And it's just a lot of people in the community willing to spend time and effort and work on building a, a universe, I guess. And you know, people have built all sorts of derivative programs like the one we spoke about before with machine learning to create a pixelated image or whatever of your loot people have created items. People have created realms and maps and worlds where anyone who has a loot can now claim like a piece of land or something in this universe. Oh, yeah. Maps, AI maps, I don't really know realms. I know a bit more about

Jamie: 41:52

which base maps actually came from DOM as well.

Roy: 41:54

I think I'm not so sure that it did.

Jamie: 41:58

Well, I definitely saw him specifically making a discord announcement about them, like four days ago.

Roy: 42:06

Yeah. I think

Jamie: 42:10

we are back we had some technical difficulties. But now we're back. We were talking about loot continue, right.

Roy: 42:16

We were talking about loot, I forgot. Well.

Jamie: 42:19

Perfect. Um, it does kind of remind me a little bit of bitmaps. There's obvious relations, obviously. Dumb being sort of, yeah, the creator of both but all on chain as Yeah, on chain. But the thing I was thinking about is, as bitmap prices have gotten so crazy high, and as they've started to trickle in some air drops of items, and talked about sort of the future where it becomes a game. I am sort of thinking about the concept of these NFT based games that are not sort of simple and closed, like a Zed run, or a chicken Derby, or an xe infinity of, I guess, xe infinity does have sort of bigger aspirations. Excuse me. But sort of, when you get to the point where they these NFT's are so expensive, but then gamified do we end up in a situation where like, the most fun way for very rich people to recreationally interact is with some next level and ft game that has these built in financial incentives, because obviously, people are, you know, obviously, a lot of people who are very rich and wealthy, enjoy keeping score with money. And now we have a game where like, natively, you're sort of already doing that, on some level. It just the possibilities of, you know, getting people who are not into, you know, MMO RPG and stuff like that into them with these ownership and financial incentives, and just the decentralized way that, you know, they don't have to feel like they're theoretically under the thumb of Activision Blizzard, like they would be for World of Warcraft. Um, the potential for this stuff really is striking. And, you know, I feel like you will need to see something Excuse me. And, and, yeah, it's huge and world changing for, you know, these prices to turn out to not be just completely speculative and ridiculous.

Roy: 44:36

Yeah, I think he said a lot of good stuff there. I think you're right that a lot of super wealthy people will enjoy or

Jamie: 44:47

prefer especially the crypto Native people, right? That's that's what a lot of people are talking about. Just with NFT's in general where, you know, people who made their money in other older ways like to buy Lamborghinis. And now people that made their money in crypto like to buy fidenza as they want to spend their money in a more native way to the way that they have acquired their money. Yeah, it's their way of Ma probably want to I'm sorry to keep interrupting, but they probably also want to, or might want to recreationally game and interact and cooperate and compete in a way that's also more native to the system. Yeah, 100%

Roy: 45:33

they want I mean, it's just a known fact in life forever that the super wealthy like to flaunt their wealth to buy expensive status symbols. And, you know, it could be expensive cars, houses, watches. Yeah. And now we have NFT's. And then as you said, for the crypto Native people, a lot of them don't particularly care about expensive watch. And you know, there's the meme that you know, yeah,

Jamie: 46:02

they do, they can buy a 720 minutes. There you go,

Roy: 46:05

you know, the NFT watches now, or clocks or other and I just wanted to ask what the difference between a clock and a watches but you know, we don't need to learn that that.

Jamie: 46:15

I think we know the answer though. Right? A watch goes on your wrist or in your pocket. Well,

Roy: 46:20

I mean, yeah, pocket watch.

Jamie: 46:22

Now it will hold here's a fair question though. Is it a watch a subset of clock or is it a different thing? By nature of the fact that it's kind of going with you hmm, this is some good How about my cell phone? Is that a watch? No, but

Roy: 46:38

it's gonna clip but

Jamie: 46:39

upon the watch it's it's the same as a pocket watch kind of I feel like we're

Roy: 46:43

dangerously close to like is a hot dog a sandwich territory is cereal soup.

Jamie: 46:49

Enjoy that type of stuff. But I'm curious. Right in tell us is a watch a subset of a clock or is it a thing

Roy: 46:58

we can't tell people to write in? Because we don't have an email address yet. We need to get one of those

Jamie: 47:02

Twitter accounts and style. Yeah, they know how to contact us. Yeah.

Roy: 47:05

tweeted us.

Jamie: 47:06

Come on, Roy.

Roy: 47:08

What were we talking about before this before

Jamie: 47:10

talking about Lou? We're talking about recreational Oh, yeah. So the wealthy buddies that are crypto natives,

Roy: 47:15

I wanted to make a point where you said that the crypto rich are now able to or more likely to spend their wealth on NFT's. But I think that we're gonna see a significant amount of people who may not have been native to the crypto space, but have made a lot of wealth in life, and did grow up playing Diablo or MMO RPGs. I mean, people in their 30s Now maybe working in Silicon Valley stadium companies, you know, they have right made millions in all the areas of life businesses and whatnot. And they may not have ever had the desire to spend even hundreds of dollars on like skins by Blizzard or Activision. All right, mate.

Jamie: 48:02

It's an interesting thing. But now they got to keep going.

Roy: 48:06

Uh, no, that was it. I think they'll spend them on Oh,

Jamie: 48:09

yeah, I have so many thoughts about this, because like, one of the things that has sort of bothered me about gaming, NFT's. Let's see, what is the Voxies is that sort of the one that you were into, and could never convince me of? Yeah, that's the that's one. So take that one. For instance, you're trying to convince me of it. And you're saying it's sort of like Final Fantasy Tactics, which, you know, is a game that I'm a huge fan of. And part of the thing that I have trouble wrapping my mind around is, like, what why do people need to spend 1000s or 10s of 1000s for Diablo or World of Warcraft type NF T games, when we we already have those games that are actually created already are super well done, you know, triple A quality games, and you can have the entirety of the game for $35. Sometimes I have trouble squaring that circle. And then so I was I was kind of researching more into this for trying to figure out how ridiculous this loot thing is. So I tried to Google what is the most expensive World of Warcraft item ever. And one of the first things I found was they had some item that, you know, sort of wasn't supposed to be dropping. So then they after it dropped a blizzard stopped it from being dropped. So one, only one guy ever was able to have one. And then he tried to sell his account on a public forum and they banned him. So it was excuse me this interesting thing where I was saying, okay, the price has not even been close to the astronomical prices sort of you that we're already seeing for this kind of thing. But then you immediately got slammed with decentralization hammer that it was all controlled by this entity. Yeah, that could just make it disappear. So you sort of almost had the pro and con of it. And then this one Google search I did

Roy: 50:00

Okay, so to go back to your point about boxes, where, why would anyone need to pay 1000s of dollars for these NFT's? I think it comes down to. I think that like using Voxies, specifically, as an example, the game is designed to be sort of play to earn. And it's not going to be designed where you need to own the boxes NFTs to actually play the game. So it's a situation where anyone can play, maybe it'll be probably really free to play, I think it is. And instead of playing for fake points or fake items, you can, you can, by playing more and doing well, you can get items that you can, that are now NFT's, and you can sell those items for real money. And the people who own the actual Voxies, I mean, there's only 10,000 of them, they will get extra benefits, they may get a percentage share of the revenue, maybe they get, I mean, there's going to be a token and maybe you know, but so the,

Jamie: 50:54

the people that are playing for free are using something that are basically like boxes, but are actually NFT's they own is that sort of how it would work.

Roy: 51:04

I don't know the specifics, but I know that it'll be free to play. And so you don't need and I know that a lot of games are taking going to be taking this approach where you don't need to own the NFT, that's going to cost 1000s of dollars to play because then they a I mean, if you need to own a box in the entire market, that entire game, player size is 10,000. And that's just ludicrous. And be it just, you know, creates a such a high barrier to entry that, right or if you

Jamie: 51:30

like for these multiplayer games that are quite popular, you just don't have the liquidity for like regularly being able to get matched up for games or whatever, unless you have a player base that's like a lot bigger than that. Exactly. So go ahead,

Roy: 51:47

I was just gonna say that it's sort of a thing that a lot of projects, and now what a lot of them have been thinking about it for a while, but it's something that they're working on is how to make the game. It's accessible to massive audiences, while still rewarding those who own the NFT's or who own them early enough. And I think that so blit maps is probably going to do that in an interesting way where the if you own a blood map, you have like the center of the universe that this core component, but then they're going to build on

Jamie: 52:17

a cell that third one of mine the other day, Oh, yeah.

Roy: 52:21

But then they're going to build games, they're going to build the blood, noughts and the bulletin are enemies. And if you own a bitmap, you'll get airdropped these things for free. Or maybe you get discounts, or raffles or whatever, you get some benefit for holding the bitmap. And that's why they can command such high prices. But then as they build out the universe, and maybe that, you know, in, in a few months or a year, they'll create an NFT that they have a million of and it's self of $10 each Pheidole a $1. Gas prices is sufficiently low,

Jamie: 52:49

I also wonder if like something might be interesting to where it's sort of like the bitmap owners, their their NFT's almost serve as like bosses for people who are kind of at the entry level to fight against in some sort of way that can kind of incentivize both parties or something like that. So just to kind of, yeah, it's, it's insane. I also, you know, I was saying how I have trouble figuring out how, or why people would want to do this, but I also can definitely see like, a lot of people who are rich or wealthy that feel like games are a waste of time, when you wrap it up in money, which rich people fucking love by definition, it becomes a much more compelling idea for them, because then it's maybe not that much different from the stock market, which they love doing, but is like, possibly inherently way more fun because it it is a game rather than the stock market, which is maybe mathematically a game but it's also this other thing that is not necessarily fun, you know what I mean? Like, these are literally recreational activities, but but now have financial incentives wrapped up into them at at whatever stakes people want. Because, you know, there's all sorts of projects and even in any individual project, you can probably be at the high end, you know, instead run with great horses are at the low end with not great horses.

Roy: 54:14

Yeah. And also, if you just think about who are going to be the millionaires and billionaires in 10 to 20 years time, they're the kids playing fortnight and Minecraft right now. And they love games like the younger generation love games, so they're good. They're the ones that are going to have tons of money to spend on games and NFT gaming is just the point house

Jamie: 54:35

like when you were describing loot and the ERC 20 tokens specifically that they dropped. Like how terrifying is all of this for governments, corporations, regulators, just old people who don't want the world to change? Like it's so scary for all of them. I think most of them aren't scared because they don't they don't grasp it. But if they got inside, it's like It's scary.

Roy: 54:59

It's scary. It's mind boggling. It changes so fast like, we've been in the we've been like, neck deep in the NFT space for six months say. There's no way we could have predicted loot, or like a list of words being the next hot thing like it's just it's ridiculous.

Jamie: 55:19

Yeah. And then like, as as ridiculous as many may see it and I I think the idea is not at all ridiculous. But I think that the prices that they ended up getting to with so little being built are ridiculous. But it kind of only takes the determination of a bunch of people and enough time to go. It doesn't matter that you thought ridiculous because we have manifested it. Yeah, we have made it not ridiculous.

Roy: 55:45

I think that's sort of basically which is amazing. It is amazing. That's basically what's happened with bluet. So that's beanies loot, or maybe it has another name based loot, I think. So he just quickly rundown on what that is. Beanie very divisive. Personality. He's famous on Twitter for I guess being antagonistic and yeah,

Jamie: 56:12

as farms for engagement. That's that engagement. Farmer. Yeah.

Roy: 56:16

And, but he has, I guess, a lot of money, and connections and and sort of I mean, definitely

Jamie: 56:24

he bought, like 1000 bucks commerce, right. He's basically very affiliated with them in a non official capacity. Is that Is that a fair way? That

Roy: 56:32

is very fair. Oh, I think maybe there's some official capacity because he's

Jamie: 56:37

tweeted once that he's not though, just because, you know, he was getting so controversial briefly. They had to make an official decision. Anyway, but yeah, okay. Come on.

Roy: 56:48

Anyway, he. He basically saw what was happening with loot. And then I think he troppo farmer and a couple of others launched bluet, which is, again, a list of words on this in this, in this case, that green background, and he sort of intentionally

Jamie: 57:07

funny to just differentiate. Yeah, other ones are on a black background. Yeah, this one you see, it's a green. Yeah. But the items are different, too. It's like more like punk punk items rather than Oh, 18 D items.

Roy: 57:20

No, that was pranks. He's Jesus. Pranks. He did a project that was like, loot for punks. And that had punk items. beanies is just like, full on. Like, shitposting. Like, I can't remember his like, I wish I could remember some of the the items. They're just full on meme items. Like verbs of we're gonna make it or I say, yeah, just stuff like,

Jamie: 57:49

I'm trying to look it up right now pretty quickly. Yeah. To get an example.

Roy: 57:53

And yeah, I mean, obviously was launched as a main free to claim and then he has willed into existence, the value behind it because he has connections with other projects. And

Jamie: 58:03

then they also managed an ERC. 20 as well be GLD. Yep.

Roy: 58:07

And that, you know, was, I think it dropped to five cents to everyone who had a bluet could claim 10,000. And it

Jamie: 58:16

looks like it was at five cents as of three hours ago. Yes. So

Roy: 58:19

it dropped to five cents, and then has sort of steadily been climbing to 85 cents or so. So that's $808,500 for every blue, which is value created out of thin air because the market has deemed it valuable for one reason or another, I guess people are speculating that he's going to continue being able to create value for them somehow, which he has been able to do in the past. So um,

Jamie: 58:45

even though officially he wasn't actually the one creating the value for punks comics. Yeah. But that's besides the point, I think, yeah.

Roy: 58:53

But anyway, that it sort of just highlights the, the point you were making about how, if enough people invest in a thing and decide that they want it to be valuable, then they will make it valuable by building on it or making connections with other projects.

Jamie: 59:09

So I want to touch on that. Like, it's so easy to compare a lot of this stuff to past historical bubbles, like the tulip bubble, and Beanie Babies are two that come up a lot. But the way that all this stuff is you know, it's sort of like that Lego building blocks thing where you can connect it to other things and build on top of it and build with it in order that you can do that with a beanie baby. You can't do that with tulip bulbs. But you can you can you can build around these things that start off as speculative bubbles for lack of a better word, and, and literally create the value where like, how are you going to do that with Beanie Babies? Never mind the fact that also, you know, Beanie Babies were something that came from a centralized company, whose goal was to make a lot of money. So they would just pump out an infinite amount of supply until the demand was reached. Yeah, even disregarding that the way you can put stuff together in the NFT space in the crypto space is so different and allows, you know, some, at least of these things that seem totally ridiculous on the outside, from a valuation perspective, and from just a premise perspective to be made totally legitimate.

Roy: 1:00:29

Yeah, it. I mean, for

Jamie: 1:00:32

those so early on, wow, we really

Roy: 1:00:34

are for like the last two months, myself, and others have been saying, hey, this kind of looks like a bubble. Like it's going up so much. And I mean, I haven't been saying that all the time, or thinking that all the time, but probably every two or three weeks, I go through a phase for me. Yeah, I

Jamie: 1:00:49

mean, this this loop thing has definitely made things feel a little toppy to me, as well, is just the market action, but I mean, I'm still just not I'm not panic selling anything. Yeah. I sold one NFT, like seven days ago and haven't sold anything since. Yeah, I'm and by the way, that sale has turned out to be a terrible decision.

Roy: 1:01:09

Yeah, I think I think the fact that NFT's are just I mean, the different the the fact that the as a whole unlimited in supply because people can create new projects and create new entities but of the successful and empty projects. There is scarcity, scarcity, scarcity, there is there is like there will only ever be 10,000 boards, your clubs will only ever be 10,000 punks, there will only ever be 999 fidenza. There will only ever be you know x y Zed of XYZ project.

Jamie: 1:01:43

1000 for danzas. Right if you count mint zero.

Roy: 1:01:47

I think no nine doesn't matter. Maybe it does. Anyway. It really does. Anyway. Um, yeah. And so it's it's just doesn't seem like

Jamie: 1:02:00

God, I wish I had a fidenza Fuck yeah. so bummed that I missed that.

Roy: 1:02:07

Yeah. There'll be another finance. Well, there'll be another

Jamie: 1:02:11

there will there literally won't be. There'll be other great generative art. I think there is there already is other great generative art for sure. Well,

Roy: 1:02:20

writing a blog talk. Every project released an upload. Yeah, well,

Jamie: 1:02:23

there's definitely people back holders of everything else called the next one. Yeah, but I mean, as you well know, I immediately loved for Denso did, I wouldn't shut up about how great they were. And I somehow never managed to buy one. It's so devastating

Roy: 1:02:36

it. We created a Umi and a friend created a group chat. And we still haven't called fidenza fund or fidenza. Fun.

Jamie: 1:02:43

And right. Oh, close to money together.

Roy: 1:02:48

Today. Yeah.

Jamie: 1:02:51

If we just oh, well, it does. It literally doesn't matter. No, but but I do love them. They are great. And I must have been so close on the week after when I was just bidding like crazy. I mean, if I was just slightly less cheap, I might have ended up with three of them. Mm hmm. Oh, well, can tell Well,

Roy: 1:03:10

ah, yeah, they'll only ever be 1000. Also finances. And I think that a lot of these markets, and these projects are sort of insulated from the wider market. So the NFT market could crash, I think and I mean, if there is a bubble, and there's just so much more supply than demand, a lot of projects may crash. And it seems likely that an inevitable that a lot of them will. But

Jamie: 1:03:38

it almost seems like like let's just talk about the board API club for one second. On the day that the mutants came out, we got over 60 as a floor, and the floor is basically 32 right now. So I mean, that's basically a 50% retracement. Yeah, that's, that's a crash to me. You can add in the Mew and the difference in asset prices, in which case instead of a 50% crash, it's actually a lot more like 20, maybe only five. But that's a that's a very healthy correction at the very least.

Roy: 1:04:12

Yeah, but I I personally think that just in the long run, they're just gonna keep going up. I mean, it sounds absolutely insane. But at the same time,

Jamie: 1:04:21

yes. Similar thing with art blocks as well. Well. You know, maybe not the super high end projects, but we had maybe like squiggles got up to like 17 and are now back down to around 10 similar thing with pigments. A lot of them Yeah, yeah, definitely.

Roy: 1:04:39

But again, like longtime I just think that the demand is going to the supply will stay the same for everything released up till now because they're just not going to release more of the same. I mean, in most cases they can't. And demand will just keep going up because partially because the communities have been formed. And so, like, prolific in the NFT space now like board apes will always be the board a yacht club, like they're not going anywhere that most of people who have an ape on selling their own the ape, I mean, a few people are panic selling, of course. But

Jamie: 1:05:16

it's gotten to the point where the money, the value is so high that they're going to be able to literally improve their real full lives so much by selling that they go, You know what? I'm so I'm so glad that I've had this and it's time for me to move on. Yeah, I mean, that's. So that's awesome. Like, people paying off all of their student loan debt, buying a house giving great presence to their loved one, whatever they do. There's a lot of great stories of people selling their one NFT and just completely changing their lives. Yeah.

Roy: 1:05:48

And when they sell it, I mean, someone else is buying it. And presumably they have a much larger bankroll, and they can afford it. And they're just happy to be part of the club. And maybe they will sell it in 10 years. And but yeah, now,

Jamie: 1:06:00

you said you say demand is always going to go up. And I sort of see what you're saying. But I wonder how much you have things that are just sort of flavor of the week. And within the existing community. The demand for that project just goes away, because people just kind of stopped caring about it. How much of that do you think is happening? Or will happen? Like, is there what's what's it called the Lindy principle or something where you know, when you believe in something, it becomes more real, like do projects just cross a threshold where it will never not be something that people in the NFT space care about, like, you know, gutter cat gang and apes, what cool cats, we can name a lot of projects, but ones that have sort of made it to a certain extent. Can't can they can only go so far down now because so many people who are native to it have kind of grown up with them or aspired to them.

Roy: 1:06:54

I think so. And I think also a lot of new people to the space dream of flipping their way up to an ape or being part of the garlic gang. And if prices drop sufficiently, a lot of people won't be like, Oh, crap, prices are dropping. I don't want any part of that anymore. They'll see oh, hey, I can afford to be part of it now.

Jamie: 1:07:12

Right? And so like some some people are gonna go, Well, if it's dropping, I'll just wait till it drops longer, but other people will go. This seems like enough of a drop and, and just get in there.

Roy: 1:07:22

I mean, and not just people who are new to the space like people who are already in the space might see the prices dropping, be like, hey, that's just a good investment. I want to Yeah, I've

Jamie: 1:07:31

been bidding on some art blocks. lately. I bid on some boarded kennel clubs lately. I actually did land a second dog. I think that goes all the way back to like episode one or two. I was looking to get a second. Yeah, finally did it a couple

Roy: 1:07:43

nights ago. Congratulations.

Jamie: 1:07:45

Thank you. Um, those are? Well, again, we were not given financial advice on this podcast. But it does seem like when the utility of them is revealed their price as a fraction of the other parts of the ecosystem is so small, and there's less supply of them. It just seems like they they have a lot of potential to me.

Roy: 1:08:09

I think there's there's,

Jamie: 1:08:10

there's less of them than the rapes. Yep. And you're gonna need them for something. Yep. There. That's exciting.

Roy: 1:08:19

Yeah. There's a lot of exciting things coming out. But yeah, I'm pretty close to wanting to buy. I think I don't want to buy another eight just because the so expensive, but mutant apes, I think pretty damn right? Juicy. And

Jamie: 1:08:36

oh, yeah, I meet I use my serum. This this had not happened last time. Yeah. I just had my serum. But I, you know, I was thinking, like I had touched on on the podcast, the supply and demand dynamics. But it also seems like, you know, tons of people on Twitter, were saying the same thing. So I'm not sure how much it was gonna matter. And I also figure at some point, they're gonna be rewarding you in holders in a way that they're not interested in rewarding serum holders. Basically just said, You know what, let me get my mute and I used it and I like, I like the looks of mine. It looks good.

Roy: 1:09:09

Nice. I am. Yeah, I'm sort of tempted to use my serums

Jamie: 1:09:16

I would I would still love to get an empty if I could have a big sale of something. But I don't really have anything for sale, per se. That is liable to get me that kind of money. Yeah, anytime soon. But

Roy: 1:09:30

maybe the prices just keep dropping. And then yeah, and then I can just grab one. Yeah. I'm, I mean, I'm looking at

Jamie: 1:09:37

the but I am jealous of the people that have they just go here's my ape. Here's my M one and here's my m two and they just have them side by side. Like I'm jealous. Yeah, that I don't have that into Yeah,

Roy: 1:09:47

I think. I mean, I would want to look at what the m two traits of my April look like before pulling the trigger, but it would be cool to have that. I guess I can't really see myself Selling the serum. I mean? Yeah, I mean,

Jamie: 1:10:05

how valuable is it gonna have to be for you to actually do that? It doesn't seem likely,

Roy: 1:10:09

especially because I could I mean, I could use it have the AYP and then if I wanted the money, I could always sell the mutant. Oh, yeah, yeah, I mean, yeah. So maybe I should, maybe I should just do it.

Jamie: 1:10:17

It doesn't. It doesn't make a lot of sense. And you don't use them on your forever if to me?

Roy: 1:10:22

Yeah. Anyway, I guess the only thing is, I mean, I can just do it later. There's no real rush.

Jamie: 1:10:29

Until you made some sort of utility. Yes, yes. But you already have a bunch of those to whole Hang

Roy: 1:10:35

on. I was just looking at the blocks curated flow. There's an endless nameless for sale for 1.7. That seems very cheap. Let's see if I can buy it. Yeah, I was gonna say I've been looking at the blocks curated floor is somewhere. I want to start doing a bit of sweeping if it drops much more. And yeah,

Jamie: 1:10:57

I've been on some aerial views and some dreams the other day. Yeah. And I'm trying to think of those other projects or two eyes, I bet on

Roy: 1:11:08

camera angles on the drive to look for these. I looked at a couple though. Yeah. The endless names flow goes 1.7 to 2.4.

Jamie: 1:11:18

Yeah, I'm seeing a lot of that lately, where people want like, basically one person or two people are really undercutting a lot. And the floor is going to go up 30% With just one or two buys. Yeah.

Roy: 1:11:29

Oh, this might be me right now. All right, what else do we have to talk about while this process? Purchases processing? Open? See, well, you have a lot to say about them. Right?

Jamie: 1:11:43

I'm not a lot. But, you know, I have my project that I've talked about here, the abstract of the day project. And I have a royalty on it. And I haven't I have not been paid a single cent of my royalties, which is very frustrating. And I contacted that guy, Nate Chastain on Twitter, he took a long time to get back to me, but then said sorry, it should we're getting on it. And it should be sent in a few days. That was much more than a few days ago, it has still not been sent. And I basically made a tweet, asking people who know about open sea royalties to just go, Hey, like, what's the deal. And I found through that tweet, tons of other creators are also not getting their royalties, and it just is super shitty. And I am pissed at them and hoping to eventually get my royalties and for these other creators to get their royalties. I mean, they're, they're just, they're literally taking an extra 10% Out of every single sale that has ever happened on my project that is supposed to go to me and just keeping it and it's, it's insane. And you know, what's sort of great about the NFT space, theoretically, is that you can have these royalties literally built into the contract. But on the open sea shared contracts that are not in, they're not in the contract. So we're just relying on the winds of open sea, to pay out the royalties for us, which is not cool and should definitely be changed. And, you know, I think I vaguely get the idea that, you know, when they started, all this open sea was getting 1/1000, the traffic that they're getting now, and they are super swamped with a million scaling issues. So it's it at the time, it was easy for them to sort of manually do that kind of thing. But now it's not. And it's just it's super unfortunate. And, and something needs to change.

Roy: 1:13:41

Yeah, I mean, I agree, I think for I mean, we're in a decentralized space, by and large, and to have your royalties be paid out manually by a human being from a centralized entity is just not cool.

Jamie: 1:13:55

Yeah. And of course, a bit of that is sort of my own fault for using the open C sharp contract, whereas I could have, with more effort, time and money and all that. Got my own contract going. And yeah, and is this is definitely making me want to look into that in the future. Now, they're also promising to change the system. And I can look into things like wearable and super rare. And of course, we have show you coming up, which I'm kind of excited about, which I can only assume will have better options, as well. So I don't think I'm going to need to learn how to be a programmer or hire an individual because there's just there's so much demand for custom contracts that I think there will be easy ways to have it done. But boy, is it a pain in the ass right now to be in the position I'm in. Yeah, and I don't need the royalties to do any of the stuff in the space I want to be doing but it's just it's not it's not right. And my pricing strategy was I'm going to put super low prices and then have a bit higher of a royalty And then try to make more of my money on the secondary market. And now the pieces have had a secondary market. Yeah, but opens is the one getting the fucking royalties? So, you know, if I knew that was gonna be the case, I'd have had higher prices to begin with. Yeah.

Roy: 1:15:15

So you mentioned show you show you that's the sushi swap? And if the marketplace coming up,

Jamie: 1:15:21

yes, I know very little about it, I think it's gonna probably reward sushi holders in some type of way and, you know, hopefully be a very legitimate competitor to open sea. Not not just tip because fuck open sea and to be a benefit to all of us, but to force open sea to be better because, you know, then they can make sure you keep being good rather than just turning into the new open sea for lack of a better word that we all have issues with, you know, competition is supposed to make all these things better. That's that's theoretically how capitalism works. And it, you know, only sometimes works that way. But sushi seems like they're legit and big enough and trying hard enough. And NFT's are just becoming so big that it would be crazy for nobody to try and compete with open sea. Yeah. I mean, I guess bearable kind of did a big thing recently with that rare token. But those people have a lot of trouble with. I'm sorry. Super rare. Yeah. With their rare token. Yeah. referable already had a

Roy: 1:16:24

token, that the rarity token. All right. All right. But

Jamie: 1:16:27

the UI on those is, is pretty rough opens, he definitely has them beat their teams. Although the search function on open sea is not good.

Roy: 1:16:35

I find no, I mean, there's so much room for improvement on so many fronts, but

Jamie: 1:16:39

But again, I do like, even though I'm saying fuck you to them for all this, like, the amount of growth that they're having to deal with is insane. And is any company having that fast of growth that is sort of unexpected. They're going to have huge growing pains. And that is that is understandable. But it just it sucks to be sort of the I guess, what am I I'm both like a customer in sort of a supplier for them. Yeah, it sucks to be on the shitty and you know, on on Twitter, people call it close. See, because it's just it site is down. So often now, again, because of this unprecedented. Have you seen the the stat about their GMV? Gross market? Marketplace? value or whatever? No, it's basically a term for revenue, but not really revenue, because, you know, their actual revenue would just be their fees, but just how much money of stuff they're selling. I would say. Yeah, the gross merchandising volume, that's probably what it is. But for the year, I think it was they have sold $4 billion worth of NFT's. 3 billion of that was in August. Yeah. It's so so that that is crazy growth. That's so recent, so understandable, but huge pain in the ass and fuck you to them for not fixing it faster.

Roy: 1:18:08

Alright, so talking of growing pains, we have analysts Elana to talk about and I mean, the theory at work has is going through some growing pains. I guess just if you want to call the high gas prices for a sustained period growing pains, because I think that they are it's it's difficult for the network to scale and deal with the massive demand that is coming in.

Jamie: 1:18:30

I mean, they have a pretty good scaling solution planned out. Right, but it's just it's not there yet.

Roy: 1:18:35

No, it's I mean, we'll be there. I mean, I think they've been saying year or two for four years or something. So who knows when but hopefully next year, year after?

Jamie: 1:18:49

I mean that they already have a like, sharding test thing going on, right? Yeah, I don't even know what it's called. Is it? Is it just a test net?

Roy: 1:18:56

Uh, I don't know what it's called. I think they

Jamie: 1:19:00

have a feature or whatever. Yeah.

Roy: 1:19:03

But anyway, so salona is another blockchain. It's basically actually you read a pretty extensive post on it. So maybe you can explain what it's Elana.

Jamie: 1:19:14

Right? Well, it's another blockchain and it's, um, you know, more like Ethereum than it is Bitcoin in that it's got smart contracts, and it's programmable and allows you to do all this other stuff, but it theoretically, and I have not got super deep into it. I basically read one thing that was a big overview and didn't get super into the technical weeds of it. But instead of the proof of work or proof of stake protocols that we're familiar with, it has a thing called Proof of history. And basically as I understand it, it is ordering every single transaction on a sort of synchronized clock. And then it's just having those transactions either be confirmed or not confirmed in the exact order that they were put to the basically just sent to the system broadcast to the network, I should say. And that is a combined with, I guess some other stuff again, I don't know all the details, allows it to not have these gas wars, and allows it to scale without having to use tons of electricity or something in a in a very promising way. And now Now, have you seen a lot of people on Twitter that are sort of acting towards a theorem the way that we sort of negatively see Bitcoin Maxxis acting towards Bitcoin, to where they're just very, very dismissive of any sort of Aetherium competitor? Now I get being dismissive of Cardano. Because that one legitimately does just seem like a joke that just says, oh, in the future, we'll be able to do what Aetherium does, and makes no seemingly no progress on it. And every time they try to do something, they they tend to fall flat on their face, whereas so on It looks like they're really doing stuff.

Roy: 1:21:14

Yeah, so I don't think I've seen much of the I

Jamie: 1:21:19

feel like I'm seeing a decent amount of it, which makes me a little bit more bearish on a theorem and more bullish on some of these potential competitors, the main one seemingly to me being so on right now,

Roy: 1:21:31

I've definitely seen a lot more of people loving salona and saying that it's just a great alternative to Aetherium for at least a great

Jamie: 1:21:44

condition probably. Because, again, that this space doesn't have to be winner take all know, they can kind of have different uses, we see some of that with like the side chains like polygon, where maybe you don't want some of these things on Polygon. But it is also very valuable to be able to save on the gas prices and transaction times for other things, and do put them on the side chain for that. And the same type of thing I think can happen in this sort of multi chain future. And we're finding ways to bridge from one chain to another and all this stuff. Yeah, I think

Roy: 1:22:20

that, as you said, there's plenty of room for multiple block chains to succeed. And I think that we will live in a future where a theorem will be around and be very successful. And anyone that's a theory of Maxis probably going to be fine. I think that in that future slano will also be doing very well. And there are things that you just can't do on a theorem that you can do on Ceylon things that require 1000s of transactions per second for single projects.

Jamie: 1:22:46

Right. And again, let's just pause there and say, before F 2.0, with the sharding. And the proof of stake comes out because theoretically, it's going to be much more scalable, when that's all in place.

Roy: 1:22:58

Yes, I think I read something about how it will be 100,000 times faster and cheaper when all that is done. But maybe I'm making that up. Anyway. So I think that yes, a theorem can be successful. Salonica successful, I think that the even Katana will carve out a niche for itself and be successful in some area. Yeah, I think one of the bigger benefits I have heard for slano Aside from the fact that transactions are fast and cheap, is that the programming language it is built upon is rust. And it is something that a lot of programmers already know. Whereas Aetherium uses solidity and it's basically a new new language that most people will have to learn. And it's just not the most easy language from what I can understand. And so it just it creates this bottleneck of programmers where the amount of building that can be done is sort of bottlenecked by people learning solidity and and

Jamie: 1:24:01

there's just not enough devs that know how to do it. This actually kind of brings us back to the loop thing where you know, the value of these block chains, not not even just that granular level of this specific NFT project of loop, but the value of the blockchains depends on what gets built on top of them. And that's sort of what is to a lot of people who are I would say more at the forefront of crypto are finding bitcoin is sort of kept because the thing that makes it so decentralized and so stable, prevents it from being able to do more stuff and to be built on top of and you know, like more racked bitcoin is getting used than Bitcoin? Yeah. racked Bitcoin, just for our listeners is basically a way of using Bitcoin on the Ethereum network by turning it into an ERC 20 token.

Roy: 1:24:52

Yeah, um, yeah, there's definitely I mean, that is definitely a big pro for slack. just the ease with which new programmers can build on it. I think that a counter argument to this that I've heard is that a lot of the things built on Aetherium only needs solidity for like a small fraction of what they're actually doing a lot of programming is done in other languages, and then just sort of use a bit of solidity to tie into the blockchain aspect. And I think, I can't remember where I read this or heard this, but I think someone that I trusted, respected was saying that, you know, even in the future, we won't need that many solidity that's maybe like 10,000, solidity. devs can sort of cater to the entire world's Ethereum blockchain needs just because so much of it is not solidity coding itself. It's just all the stuff that is running sort of parallel or on top of the Ethereum blockchain, and then ties in just for little bits and pieces. But yeah, I mean, it's just, again, coming back to the big grand picture of I think that many blockchains can and will exist. And then we'll have these bridges and multi like, ways that people can interact from one chain to another. And then they'll just be able to ideally, have one wallet that serves all the block chains. And I mean, we're just so early that it's clunky at the moment, people feel like they have to pick and choose and put all their eggs in one basket or like, be, you know, bet on one of these blockchains to succeed. And I just think that, like personally hedging your bets hedging, like I have, I picked up a bag of cilona. Not that long. I mean, a while ago, and then another back not that long ago. And yeah, I really like a theory of ensalada and tezos. I have tears and tears and lefties, and I haven't got caught on Oh, just because so many people I look up to do sort of look down upon it, but I still think it will carve out a niche and have a future.

Jamie: 1:26:54

Yeah, I mean, its valuation right now is so high relative to a lot of the other things that it the market is sort of acting like it's already carved out a very large niche. And that's sort of at least a lot of people's issue with it. Is that the cart is being put away before the horse maybe?

Roy: 1:27:12

Yes, yes. So I mean, I guess not many people are necessarily saying that it's not going to be a thing or a good thing. It's just that it's maybe overvalued at the moment has been

Jamie: 1:27:24

possibly.

Roy: 1:27:27

Alright, what else do we have to talk about?

Jamie: 1:27:31

We kind of wanted to talk about the concept of a third place avatar project, which I feel like I see talked about a lot. And that's about it. I think.

Roy: 1:27:41

So third place after punks and apes are number

Jamie: 1:27:46

one. You're right. That's that's a consensus thing. And the board APR Club is a consensus number two, and there's been sort of a lot of talk for a while. I think the two main ones for most of the time was the gutter Cat, cat, gutter, cat gang and cool cats. Yeah. But then the pudgy penguin sort of started being relevant. And some some sort of cooler, more successful OG people are kind of really into these cons lately. Oh, yeah. But what do you what do you think about the idea that they're sort of hacks to be a tier one list, so to speak of Avatar projects? And, you know, if you think there's a front runner for third or anything like that,

Roy: 1:28:29

I don't particularly think that there needs to be or should be a tear list. In the strictest sense of that, like first, second, third, fourth, fifth, I think it is clear that first and second punks and apes it's just hard to conceive of any other project really giving those to her run for their money. At least in the in the short to medium term. And then I think the third to you know, X place, there's just a ton of great new ish projects that can fill that that that can tie for third place basically. Got a cats and cool cats, two good examples. You mean pudgy penguins? I would say the horses sort of one. Yeah, that's a much newer one. But that's, you know, come up with a lot of force. It's just, I mean, the meta Harris from pixel vault, they could be up there. They've obviously had a lot of hype and stuff behind them. The cons, as you said, Rumble cons is another project that's coming up and getting a lot of hype and

Jamie: 1:29:36

there's just that's like the basketball one. Yeah.

Roy: 1:29:39

It's this sort of building a three V three basketball game using NFT's. And yeah, I don't say more of those mutant ape mutant apes is another one that can be tier three. I mean, if you don't want to, if you don't include them as the same as the board apes, which they are quite the same. Yeah, I mean, I don't. I think that

Jamie: 1:30:04

I think it's maybe more just sort of a fun thing for the people that are proponents of those individual projects to,

Roy: 1:30:11

you know, to, to

Jamie: 1:30:12

you see a moment in the sun,

Roy: 1:30:14

you see a lot of like Twitter polls where, you know, people are like, hey, you know, what's the biggest pro right after and then all the communities come out in force and vote for they're the one that they're most invested in the most in love with? And? Yeah,

Jamie: 1:30:29

I don't actually cool cats is something we could talk about. They just had sort of a big announcement.

Roy: 1:30:33

Yeah, I saw. You mentioned something about that. But I didn't look into it. So they're,

Jamie: 1:30:37

they're doing a companion drop, which is very popular these days. But they, and I guess we don't know exactly what it is. We probably know when it is, but neither of us specifically do. But they also announced they're, they're making their own ERC 20 token as well, called milk. And, you know, it's during what they do what's called town halls. And I have not tuned into any of them, unfortunately. Nor did I tuned into this one. So I don't have much beyond just those two tidbits, but those are both pretty big tidbits. And then you know, pudgy penguins, they have a little drop coming the president appraisal,

Roy: 1:31:11

that's actually a really interesting one, because most of the time that a project, you know, does a companion drop, or an airdrop, which you can claim, they announce it. It's either surprised and you get it right away. Or they say, Oh, hang on, you know, you can claim it in a week, pudgy penguins basically came out and said that we're going to release these pudgy presence, but they'll only be revealed on Christmas Day. And sort of this like three months long build up now. It's so long in this space, it is so long. Yeah. And I think it sort of will keep some well could go both ways. He can keep it could just die out and people like forget about them. But I think it'll keep some level of interest and engagement. That will probably provide a bit more value than say you've had dropped in a weekend. Then like usually after the drop. People sort of lose interest. Like, yeah, I mean, after the re the reveal, reveal. Yeah.

Jamie: 1:32:06

Did you hear what I said about the gutter cat gang, big button. The gutter cat gang just did something to where they have like, so they already had the rats. But then just the other day, they did some sort of thing? Yeah, they're releasing like two new species within it.

Roy: 1:32:19

Yep. They announced two more companion drops. I don't think they revealed what exactly that will be. But

Jamie: 1:32:25

it seems like already sold them in some sort of way. Right? Yeah, I

Roy: 1:32:30

very briefly heard about it. I mean, I have three GL accounts, and one got a rat. I should probably look into it more. I think that if you have one cat plus one rat, like that combo, you could claim get one of each, maybe yeah, one of each companion free. And then maybe they had a public sale for the rest or anyway, they basically expand in the community by a lot. And right, I think that they will check

Jamie: 1:32:54

this out. One of the things about that one is it's so small. Yeah. So there's an interesting thing where you have this sort of, you know, traditionally supply and demand, right, where, because the they have smaller supply, it should be more valuable. But in these NFT projects, so much of the value is driven by community, and you just by definition, can't have as big and strong of a community with with so much smaller numbers that the traditional supply demand dynamics. Or I should say maybe traditional supply dynamics don't really hold because the size of the community is able to drive even more demand than the multiple of supply that exists in the bidder project.

Roy: 1:33:39

Yeah, I agree. And I think that this will, I guess, trying to address that by increasing the total community size. And an interesting thing with the cats is that that companion drop the rats, people have been using them as like Twitter profile pictures, whereas with most other projects, like the boy eight dogs, you see very few maybe I don't think is a single person use just a dog as a as an avatar.

Jamie: 1:34:03

Right. Although they were they were very explicit that, you know, that's not what it is in a way that the rat was sort of more designed to be. Yeah, but regardless, they do seem to be more popular as like, yeah, just as an avatar than the other companions tend to be. Yeah. Although these mutants are quite popular at this point, but they're not exactly mutants. They're not exactly meeting this because I mean, companions, because there was also sort of the sale of them. Yeah, it wasn't just the drop.

Roy: 1:34:34

Yeah. Um,

Jamie: 1:34:37

we also told somebody online that we would talk more about how our poker backgrounds have helped us in NFTs. And I told them we would talk about that on this episode.

Roy: 1:34:48

All right. How has your poker background help you with NFT's Jamie?

Jamie: 1:34:52

Wow, I thought I was teeing you up. You just turned around me? Well, let's let's get into it. There. There's a ton of stuff molarities and the thing that you learn in poker pretty quickly, if you become successful is that you need to be able to detach the idea of measuring things, with results from measuring things by decision making. And in the NFT space, I think, you know, it's very easy, if you don't have that background to see prices going up or down for projects that you're in or not in, and overreacting in some type of way, getting scared and selling too early, getting FOMO and buying after you've already missed a good entry point for you, any of those types of things you see a lot of other people doing. And I feel like those are things that we've been able to avoid because of sort of the emotional stability and healthy level of disconnect from money that poker sort of instilled in us. Yeah,

Roy: 1:35:58

I think so too, I would say not not even avoid completely, because I will still find myself sometimes, you know, caving into FOMO or making a bad decision because of emotions, but by and

Jamie: 1:36:11

large, covered some of these topics on your most recent substack. Right, it's pretty this is a pretty related topic. Yes, I

Roy: 1:36:17

my topic, my subject posters on money. And I talked about, you know, a healthy level of attachment being necessary and how you don't want to be too detached. Because then obviously, if you don't care about money at all, you just, you know, you wasted and you make terrible decisions, but you don't, you also don't want to be overly attached, because then you can't, like make logical decisions, your emotions start overriding

Jamie: 1:36:42

you. And part of the way that people that have been successful in NFT's I've been so successful is, you know, really, really big gains. So like, just let's look at maybe our bitmap investments. For instance, when we mentor them at point one, and now we're somewhere at like, a floor of 30, that's a 300x gain. And if you're very, very focused on the money, and especially if you're sort of looking at it in a more traditional investing mindset, it's you're gonna sell when it goes up to x or 3x, or 5x, or 10x. Even, you know, and and miss out on the really, really big gains, or like, you know, if you look at what people have done with fidenza, was, it would have been so easy for somebody who minted one to flip it along the way. And obviously, tons of them did. But did you know from from a Yeah, you did with a few of them, but you managed to hold one. So good good on that. But from a purely financial perspective, part of the way that people have been so successful in NFT's, so far has been these really insane, outsized gains that you pretty much don't ever see in other financial products, except maybe like short term options, or something that you get very lucky on. And so that ability to not necessarily value things in money, but in just whether or not it's still a good investment to hold this thing. Because it would be hat, it would be so easy if you're money obsessed to go, okay, how can I not turn this $250 investment into$6,000? By selling now, and then, you know, end up very emotionally upset later when that $6,000 asset turns out to be a $100,000 asset? For instance? I mean, it's very ludicrous, but the ability to and you know, also it's okay, definitely to sell way before you get those gains. But you want to be doing that kind of thing with a level head and some semblance of a game plan, rather than just going, Oh, God, it's going up so much so fast. I can't handle it. And

Roy: 1:38:53

I don't want it to crash. taking out money. Yeah. Yeah, kind of, I saw someone on Twitter post this the other day. Basically saying you can get you get rich by you can get rich by flipping NFT's but you can only get wealthy by holding NFT's. And I mean, it sort of goes with any investment, like you say, if you're trying to get those 100x plus games, yeah, if

Jamie: 1:39:15

you if you bought Coca Cola in the 1980s and sold after they went up 40%. Yeah, you feel kind of good. But if you if you held them for another 15 years, you made a whole lot more,

Roy: 1:39:26

pretty much. Yeah. And obviously it's a lot riskier to do that because things can crash and you know, 40% stagnate even Yeah. And like 40% or let's say a two or 3x. That's good money in the bank. And you couldn't write with almost zero if it does.

Jamie: 1:39:43

And this also goes back to one of the things that we kind of recommend a lot, which is just if you can, it really helps to get to or more than to have a project you're getting into because that will allow you to capture some of those sort of bigger more immediate gains that are not life changing, but make you feel like you're making good decisions and have your cost basis covered. So you know, you buy two of something. And then once it's gone up 3x, maybe you can sell one of them, and then really try to ride the other one to a much bigger number.

Roy: 1:40:18

Yeah, definitely. I'm trying to think of another way that poker sort of helps in the NFT space.

Jamie: 1:40:29

Well, it does teach you to think probabilistically. Yes. You know, I think a lot of people just, they have one vision of what the future is going to be, just because they get it in their head that this is what is going to happen. Whereas poker has shown us that, you know, when the river card is coming, there's 44 different outcomes. Yeah. And you might, you might be imagining this one, but any of these different ones can happen. And you need to be mentally, emotionally and financially prepared for all of the different different possibilities, not just the one that you've been telling yourself in your head is going to happen.

Roy: 1:41:08

Yeah, absolutely. I think being financially prepared, I think that's sort of touches on bankroll management. And that's a big deal in poker, obviously, you don't want to be playing. Yeah, one game with a massive like all your bankroll on the table, right, you know, if you have to know about 10% of it. Yeah, exactly. You want enough of a buffer so that you can afford to weather the variance and the lock aspects and the things that are outside of your control. But also enough that you don't, I mean, even more than that enough that you don't feel psychologically upset at losing a single pot or a hand or, you know, a few stacks. And like, if you have enough money, then it doesn't feel like

Jamie: 1:41:53

you're getting enough money relative to the states, right? Yes, it's all relative,

Roy: 1:41:57

it's all relative. But you need enough so that you don't feel like if you lose a couple of hands, then you won't have enough to pay rent or food or even to play the game.

Jamie: 1:42:07

And then you're changing your strategy sometimes. Yeah, to try and avoid that. And now you're not even playing the game, the best way possible in the long run, because you're trying to avoid that short term pain. Yeah,

Roy: 1:42:18

I mean, and same thing with NFT's. I mean, it comes back to it if if your bankroll is really small, and I mean, it's it's unfortunate that like the state of NFT's is now it's just hard to cerium NFT's let's, let's say that theory, manatees is hard to sort of get involved and have a like, with $1,000 bankroll. It just won't get you very far. I mean, gas fees a lot alone are gonna be $100.

Jamie: 1:42:41

Right? So yeah, you can get into these new projects that are quite cheap, pretty reasonably with 1000. But if they're at all popular, the gas fees are going to eat into that so much, because so many people are going to be trying to get into it that again, even though the price theoretically is is cheap relative to $1,000. When you add in the gas, it becomes pretty expensive.

Roy: 1:43:03

Yeah, that's sort of even more than that. It's, um, it. It's hard to have like good bankroll management, like you buy a new project for point one eight, that's, you know, $400. Now, that's 40% of $1,000 bankroll. And ideally, you don't want to have that much of your bankroll in one specific project. Because if it does, two or 3x, you just, I mean, it's fine for if you have if it two or three x's at that point, you cash out, and then you double your bankroll effectively, but, right, it's just it. It's risky, I guess that's the end of me. NFT's is just a risky place at the moment. But with without the risk, it's hard to find these massive, massive, massive rewards. So it's just part of the territory, I think.

Jamie: 1:43:49

Yeah, I do think that it's very possible that there's going to be huge, outsized rewards on Solana in the way that there has been on Yeah, a theory of NFT's lately, just as, as the place where you know, but again, because of the gas fees, you almost can't get an NFT on a theorem for a low price just because an NFT that cost zero is already costing you point point oh three or something on gas and stuff like that, that the ability to get in really early to where you know, if your price gets to x or whatever, because your denominator of what you started with on your price. You just can't get it low enough on Aetherium right now to get some of the games that people have previously been able to get, especially if you have a low bankroll that it definitely seems like looking on other trains. Probably tehsils in salon or right now I think would be my non official recommendations, though those are places where you might really be able to see a lot of those gains in the future. Again,

Roy: 1:45:00

no, I think I think definitely. There's a lot of truth to that. I think myself, I, when I get back from this this trip, I really want to look more into Solana NFT's as well, because,

Jamie: 1:45:10

yeah, I've heard the marketplaces are quite poor. And but that's I mean, that's right now, but that's, that's part of being early. Yeah. That's

Roy: 1:45:17

where a lot of the gains when, you know, if a lot of people are dissuaded from using it, because it's a poor marketplace, then you can potentially get in very, very early.

Jamie: 1:45:26

Yeah, that that tech writer, we like to talk about pack Em, I think I remember one of his posts he was sort of talking about when you're, I think he was actually also quoting somebody, but like, when you're dealing with something where the user interface sucks, and like, there's all these issues just around the edges, and people are still really wanting to use it, like, you know, you have something that's potentially huge and transformational. And, you know, if you can get past those issues, you're you're looking at something that is potentially super game changing, because the fact that people are putting up with all that shit means there's something really great going on underneath.

Roy: 1:46:06

Yeah. 100% agree. I mean, I think that even on a theorem, that's sort of where we are now, it's just it's not easy to get involved and buy NFT's. It's really difficult. No steep learning curve.

Jamie: 1:46:21

Right, the gas is so high, open seas down a lot. It's for new people. It's not exactly easy to tell if they're buying a legitimate project or a copycat project,

Roy: 1:46:29

even just taking a step back a lot getting Metamask set up and getting it funded. It's yeah, it's frictional every step of the way, basically, for sure. Alright, I think we've been talking for just about does it I was Yeah. Oh, well, I just looked at a list. The very first thing is the Sagrada Familia, which I

Jamie: 1:46:49

don't want to talk about that another time, I think, because I have to go to dinner quite soon.

Roy: 1:46:53

Okay. I should be going to bed anyway, but just spoiled or we

Jamie: 1:46:57

both went to the Sagrada Familia, and it was stunningly beautiful. And maybe we'll get into it. Yeah. Amazing. We'll get into that more later. But let's, let's hop into the plug section. Cool. What do you what do you have to plug? Oh, you got I got you. Let's let's talk about the collector Chronicles. What's the collector Chronicles? And why are we talking about it? Ha I put it back on you did.

Roy: 1:47:17

So the collector Chronicles is a sort of an NFT project.

Jamie: 1:47:22

It is it's not sort of an NFT project. It is an NFT project.

Roy: 1:47:25

It is an NFT project. And so each chronicle is an a set of NFT's I think they released after write chapter is I think they released 100. Editions. And effectively they they

Jamie: 1:47:43

reset to 125. I think for this one, he's trying to sort of expand it slowly, while still kind of rewarding the early holders, okay, it's getting five I believe.

Roy: 1:47:54

Anyway, so what it is, is each chapter they he picks a the artist behind it picks a collector or NFT collector or personality or whoever and creates sort of like an image was that we would say to them sort of like a it's an animated picture of like the room a room, which has like, Yeah,

Jamie: 1:48:16

we're gonna we're gonna link to it in the shownotes Yeah,

Roy: 1:48:19

we're doing that, again.

Jamie: 1:48:21

A very pleasant, sort of Lo Fi music accompanying animated scene of a collector in sort of their NFT collecting space

Roy: 1:48:34

with some of the NFT's around. Right? Yeah. So um, and we

Jamie: 1:48:40

we got asked to be featured in the next chapter, chapter four coming up, and we will be right.

Roy: 1:48:46

Yes. So there'll be both of us podcasting. Some of our favorite NFT's will be around a dogs will be there it looks we've seen some mock sketches are actual dogs

Jamie: 1:48:55

not our Bored Kennel Club it can vary. My wife is very excited to see our our beloved dog Toby internet. FJ she's gonna love it.

Roy: 1:49:04

My fiance Rachel, she wants a bobble head on the wall. So I don't know quite how it works. But maybe, yeah, who knows?

Jamie: 1:49:15

Yeah, it's a cool project. I'm excited to be in it and to collect one of them. So check that out.

Roy: 1:49:21

Yeah, we'll push the link.

Jamie: 1:49:24

Before is not out yet, but you can get any of the other three and chapter four will be out relatively soon.

Roy: 1:49:30

Yes. And you said that maybe Vincent vendor will be in one of the few Oh, yeah,

Jamie: 1:49:33

yeah, he confirmed somebody kind of just approached him. I think not the artist and he was like yeah, that's really good. So I think maybe chapter five or six maybe seven I'm not sure specifically how many other people he's in talks with and has things in the works for but yeah, Vincent Vanda will be in an upcoming one as well which is very cool because he is a big is a huge figure in art blocks. And we love art blocks that are called us.

Roy: 1:50:00

Yeah. I mean, he has an epic collection of medicine saying, Yeah,

Jamie: 1:50:05

I was actually just looking at it the other day, but we don't need to get sidetracked at the end of the episode. No.

Roy: 1:50:09

I will plug my newsletter once again, because I released a new post this week. And yeah, I'd love for more people to read it and subscribe. If they like the content. It is Zeneca33.substack.com, and I'll post the link in the description, I'm actually going to soon create a new URL just because it's just seems easier to have something that's not dots appsec.com going forward. But yeah, that's what you can find. And I'll also take the opportunity to do what you usually do and plug this podcast. If you enjoy it, then tell a friend and potentially do the whole lever review type thing in places that you know, is good for podcasts.

Jamie: 1:50:55

Yes, subscribe. Yep, subscribe. Like I just remembered I have one more actually. So my stepfather is a very good person. And He's highly involved in a charity that's based in New Orleans. It's called the St. Bernard project. And it was created after Hurricane Katrina. Um, their slogan is they're reducing the time between disaster and recovery. So basically, when there's a natural disaster, generally somewhere in the southeast United States is is where they are, they are quick to help out. And they just had on the anniversary of Hurricane Katrina, which is terrible, another bad hurricane in New Orleans. And there's very, very little if no electricity in the whole city and, and it's all terrible. But he is selling an NFT. The project is called drops of life. And he's he's doing an auction right now, on an individual piece from that collection. It's called dawn on the Mississippi. And he's going to give all of the proceeds from it to the St. Bernard project and culture aid, Nola, Nola, meaning New Orleans, Louisiana. And so that's just a great way to give back. And I think people should look at it. And think about bidding on it.

Roy: 1:52:15

How long is the auction open

Jamie: 1:52:17

for? Let me I'll pull it up right now. Okay, open c.io And we will promise you Yep, we will have a life. I did not put a space between the garage and have so open. See can't find it. Now I fix that I'm cooking. And let us see here. I'm done. Don't there's seven days left in it. So there's plenty of time to bid on it. Very cool. And it's a nice looking photo. I'll probably get the bidding going today myself.

Roy: 1:52:54

All right. Well, this has been true boy days.

Jamie: 1:52:59

Episode Five.

Roy: 1:53:00

Yes.

Jamie: 1:53:01

Thanks for listening. Two Bored Apes, talking NFT's, De-fi, and some random stuff! uh uh uh uh Two Bored Apes, talking NFT's, De-fi, and some random stuff! uh uh uh uh