Jamie: 0:00

The hosts of Two Bored Apes are not registered investment advisors. The podcast is for entertainment and informational purposes only. Nothing said on it should be construed as investment advice.

Intro: 0:10

Two Bored Apes, talking NFT's, De-fi, and some random stuff! uh uh uh uh Two Bored Apes, talking NFT's, De-fi, and some random stuff! uh uh uh uh

Jamie: 0:28

Welcome to Episode 18 of Two Bored Apes. I'm your host Jamie. I'm here with my friend and co host Roy. Roy, how are you?

Roy: 0:35

I'm good. Jamie. How are you? How's your face?

Jamie: 0:38

I'm I'm bleeding a little bit. I shaved.

Roy: 0:42

We started recording. Go ahead

Jamie: 0:46

Roy has a story to tell.

Roy: 0:48

Well, just before we started recording I Jamie's that I'm ready. I'm ready to be ready. And then like two minutes later, he said, I have started shaving. She had like another six minutes of waiting. I'm like, okay, and then he says, Wow, that was a sharp blade. What causes delay? Another 180 seconds at least. I'm leaking. So yeah. How was your face?

Jamie: 1:11

It's leaking. I told you this already. I nicked up real self pretty good. Yeah, a little bit. It's a very sharp blade. I'm telling you. You know what? You know what my big issue was mate?

Roy: 1:23

I don't know. You don't know how to shave?

Jamie: 1:26

Well, evidently not. I'm usually quite good. But I haven't done it in a while. I was trying to get the very, very top of my upper lip. And I basically just sliced off a very small piece of the bottom of my nostril. And that's I'm having

Roy: 1:40

Thats a tough place to get.

Jamie: 1:41

Yeah, so But I went a little too aggro and trying to get it. And instead I got a little bit of my nose. But I'm fine. And we have we have Twitter q&a. q&a to get to. But before that, do you want to talk about the poker tournament that we just played?

Roy: 1:56

No. Okay, this is a q&a segment. Okay,

Jamie: 1:59

I'll just go right by it then. And I'll talk about how I knocked you out in the tournament later. Our first question comes from rice farmer rice farmer said how do you feel about founders slash artists starting and working on multiple projects?

Roy: 2:14

Uh, first of all, can you hear the sirens in the background? I cannot that there's a button like they've been going for like, a minute now. Just on your end? Yeah, yeah. On my end, I opened the window, because it was really stuffy in here. And anyway, back to the question.

Jamie: 2:29

I cannot hear that.

Roy: 2:31

Good. How do I feel about founders auto starting working on multiple projects?

Jamie: 2:38

how do you feel about founders artists starting and working on multiple projects?

Roy: 2:42

How do you feel about it?

Jamie: 2:48

it's understandable for people that are buying things with a financial mindset to be more wary of a project that has a founder, that is, has a split focus professionally, amongst multiple projects. That's understandable. We've seen that in, you know, bigger, much bigger spaces. For instance, just recently, the Twitter very recently, the Twitter CEO and founder Jack Dorsey, at that's his name, right. Dorsey stepped down. He was the CEO of square and Twitter and there was an activist investor at Twitter that really wanted him to step down, because it seems like he was focused on square. And that's an understandable thing. I think, that if the projects are right, and the and the founder is right, though, you can probably definitely have two successful projects at once. But what do you think?

Roy: 3:42

Yeah, I think I largely agree. I mean, it depends on the project and the, the person's role within the project, like, you can you can start a project you can founder, you can create it. And, you know,

Jamie: 3:56

and then you decentralized, sort of Exactly, yeah, that's kind of the point of a lot of this is that there's sort of an initial creation, like, especially with like, the Creative Commons stuff, where it's totally in the public domain, like almost the point of those ones is that after the creator creates it, then every literally everyone in the whole world is basically a creator for that project. Yeah, in theory. So the person who initially created it can go on to make something else and because it's interoperable, that may very well interact with and raise the value of this, even though it's not strictly speaking, this project.

Roy: 4:32

Prime example of this is dumb founder of blip maps, you know, he created loot, and you know, that's now a thing of its own. He's got the sub drive project, which you know, is integrating with blip maps in a way he's got. He just recently released something called corruption, which a lot of people are loving and it's just like, he's founding lots of projects, but it doesn't really feel like his focus is you know, massively split. It's like he's his money. focusing is

Jamie: 5:00

creating very open ended projects that are Yeah, that are meant to be built upon by lots of people in whatever ways they want. Right? We lost the Arctic for a second there, didn't we?

Roy: 5:12

We did way back. I think I was talking about John and corruption. And, you know, all the projects He's launching, and you were talking about, you know, how many what is that? Yeah, that's another one that, you know, he just, I think was like a stealth drop three weeks ago or something, and I don't fully understand it. But there's something interesting on chain mechanic. Yeah,

Jamie: 5:35

there's different types of projects. And I would understand more. So a, like, you have to look at the founders slash artists, as the question says, and look at the role that they're saying that they can do or are going to do with these positions and like what you're expecting of them? And is it realistic for them to do it in multiple projects or not? And how many other people are involved in the project that then being away from it for so many hours doing other things? You know, are they that integral to the project? Is the project need them that much? Yeah, if it doesn't so much, yeah. And we were just talking about some good examples of ones where they're almost not supposed to do all that much afterwards, like, like loot or like cryptoads, stuff like that, where it's just all in the public domain. A large portion of the point of that stuff is for others to build it up.

Roy: 6:29

Yeah, I guess on the flip side, though, there are some instances where someone will like launch a project. And then it might not be like wildly successful. And it's just like, petering puttering along with like, a decent community, but full price isn't going up. And maybe instead of, you know, trying to do well and add more value to that community, they think it might be easier, and in their best interest to go and launch something else raise a whole bunch more money. And that kind of thing is probably not not something I'm a fan of.

Jamie: 7:01

Yeah, that's but in theory, that's just more an issue of the person not being that into it emotionally that focused on it. Whereas, you know, like spawning a good idea. And then and then moving on to create other ones, or just juggling a couple other ones is a very different thing from going from project to project to project and just trying to collect, basically mid prices, and then not knowing anything, of course, yeah, you don't want to just be following those people around. And just, you know, maybe hoping to meet rares and flipping them really quick. Like it, that's the only way to win. And those I would think,

Roy: 7:37

yeah, do a touch on the artist side of this question. Like, like an artist working multiple projects a little bit

Jamie: 7:43

the same thing. But but more. So I would think artists are someone who can be involved in multiple projects, because in the art is almost just sort of the icon of an NFT. Really, you create it once and then it's created and NFT if it's supposed to be, you know, like an access ticket to future art drops from this same artist. Okay, that's one thing. But, you know, if the if the people who created the Bored Apes Yatch Club art are going to go do other things. Now, that doesn't really, that doesn't detract from the value of the Bored Ape community. That's not what it's about at this point.

Unknown: 8:21

Yeah. I agree with that. Alright, I

Roy: 8:23

think that's a tough question.

Jamie: 8:25

That is that gray,

Roy: 8:27

a 711. A that's interesting. Username says. Any thoughts on guiding newcomers with small bankrolls on how to enter NFT's? Current mints games to PvP? And actually understand that. Any fun upcoming game question mark any low price communities that are fun, or better to hold off until we get a NFT? Ball again? And then in parentheses where everyone practically makes money? That's a lot of clubs. A lot of questions. Yeah.

Jamie: 8:58

And the current men's games are to PvP is confusing. I wonder if they definitely meant PvP or it's possible, you know, they're looking for a more Co Op, or solo games, I guess. Yeah. I'm not sure if that's what they're actually asking them. But let's answer the other stuff.

Roy: 9:14

Right? So any thoughts on guiding newcomers with small bankrolls? We've touched on this? A lot? I think several times it's

Jamie: 9:20

almost the most common question basically is how do you how do you navigate the NFT space with a small bankroll? We have like a whole segment to the regular episodes where you're basically trying to do with the one F challenge, but we also regularly answer questions on this. Yeah,

Roy: 9:37

I mean, I don't think our answer has really changed much. It's explore other chains, you know, Salado tasers and avoid F

Jamie: 9:45

main net would be a big one. Again, it also depends on what this person means by small bank rolls, like different people have different definitions. Yeah, but if you're if you're talking about something that's like, you know, under what $2,000 us or something like that, You'd probably want to avoid the AF mainnet. Especially if you're trying to get multiple NFT's and kind of participate and maybe flip some rather than just like buy one or two and hold. Yeah. One other questions. Any fun upcoming game?

Roy: 10:16

You were talking about chicken Derby recently? That seems like it's such a high level

Jamie: 10:21

I heard that the the car racing one riot racers. Oh, yeah. has had some life lately as well, which is, you know, another one that's basically doing Zed but different, like chicken Derby as well. Yeah.

Roy: 10:34

Yeah. I mean, there are so many game, NFT's and projects coming out now.

Jamie: 10:39

Yeah, there are I mean, the the Bored Ape yacht club thing is that's not really what they're looking for, I'm sure. But you know, the nifty league de gens, the chicken Derby, there's obviously, there's obviously, xe but upcoming games. It's it's weird, because the upcoming games for the most part, the entities already exist. For instance, we just talked about chicken Derby vanities already out. But the game like six months, yeah, the game is upcoming. And that's the case with almost literally everything except for XE and Zed as far as games are concerned.

Roy: 11:15

And nifty de gens.

Jamie: 11:16

They've got a game out. Yeah. But but their, their whole thing sort of is that they're making games playable. Yeah. And it's not about having one really polished game. It's about, you know, they're almost trying to make a gaming company with these NFT avatars or something to that effect. Yeah.

Roy: 11:36

And we have all these sort of on chain games that have been taken off lately with the prime example. But the ether orcs is another one that's, you know, on chain RPG. And I think that they recently moved to polygon. So like the void, the whole gas kerfuffle of being a game on chain on eth main net, which doesn't work very well. But yeah, yeah, I'm not super familiar with any, like games that are launched in the next two weeks, I guess.

Jamie: 12:03

Yeah. But But definitely, if you again, if you look at the existing gaming and FTS, there's very, very few projects out right now, where it's not about upcoming games. So you don't necessarily need to look for a new mint. If you're looking for upcoming games. Yeah. Any low price communities that are fun? Yes, definitely. If you take part in a handful of low priced NFT's and hang out in their discords and follow the right people on Twitter, you'll see that there's a lot of communities that still exist that are fun. And now obviously different people have different definitions of bone. But there's definitely communities that are still existing and still interacting and having fun in projects that are not expensive. Yeah,

Roy: 12:48

I mean, it depends on what you mean by low price. But let's say under point, one eth. I mean, that there are dozens and dozens of projects that have fun, thriving communities. And that's just on each main net. Like, again, there are communities and other chains as well, that I'm sure I found, you know, what

Jamie: 13:06

a good example might be like this FX hash thing, it seems it seems to be building a community of collectors. And you and I both well know how much fun that artbox community is. And this kind of seems like they're, you know, obviously, they're sort of trying to be, quote unquote, artbox of tezos. But you know, their artists are going there, and collectors are going there. So some real extent they're doing it. Yeah, that's definitely worth checking out.

Roy: 13:38

If you're into, I guess generative art,

Jamie: 13:40

he's a better to hold off until we get to NFT Bull again. I mean, I guess if you're talking about from an investment standpoint, it's always going to be better to invest at the beginning of a bull. But how the hell do you know and that's coming? Yeah, exactly. Yeah, you just got to always know that. You don't know which way the market is going to go. And look at the size of your bankroll and how much you're willing to invest at any given time and just go from there. If you can tell when the bull and bear markets are gonna start to stop, you don't need to be asking us questions on Twitter. Yeah, you can just time the market for four months, and then buy whatever entities you want.

Roy: 14:18

Also, I've sort of had a lot of people ask similar questions where, you know, they're wondering, are we ever going to get back to where it was like three or four months ago, where it did seem like anything you mean is just going to be immediately profitable. And I don't think we're going to see those days. Again, I just think the market has moved on from that sort of mania. And we have too many projects dropping now. Yeah.

Jamie: 14:41

I pretty much would think that's true. And I think a lot of that stuff you know, is was largely true at the Mint prices because like, let's just take a for instance, let's go with like after the Bored Ape Yatch Club, and then look at sort of all the projects that seemed like they were getting trying to do something very similar, okay. And you had all these projects that kind of went up from there meant price somewhat. But it seems to me that a ton of that value in that community has ended up just coalescing specifically in like the gunner, gang, gutter, cat gang. And then so a lot of those other projects have sort of dissipated. So I think the market is kind of aware that there's going to be more losers, but bigger winners now, and is just not as excited about spreading it out. Because so much of the value tends to end up in such a small number of the projects, people are just sort of being a little bit more selective and trying to shop at, you know, the market of existing stuff versus future stuff, because now we already have projects that you can see this is to some degree of success. It now obviously, it's a lot more expensive than minting new projects. But it's in some sense, a sure thing, because you do have a community, you do have a team that has shown that they can do stuff, whereas minting the new stuffs, it's so hopeful and expecting.

Roy: 16:10

Yeah, I mean, if you compare it in terms of you're going to meant 15 random things at point five 2.1 or by like a world of women or a dead fellows at you know, 1/8 or whatever it is, at the moment, we're creatures, which have very well established communities, they have been around for months, you know, the founders haven't robbed and, you know, they're building exciting things. It's, it's the lower risk, obviously, probably lower reward play, but maybe not like maybe on average minting 15 random things is just not gonna make you that much money. Whereas buying, you know, a tried and tried and tested project. If you're looking at it from a 1234 year horizon, these are probably the projects that are quite likely going to be 10, x's 50x 100 X's if these if these projects turn into like, you know, Metaverse brands in the same way that body has cool cats kind of has. Yeah, and many others. No, yeah,

Jamie: 17:10

I think that's true. I do wonder though, like, if we both just named whatever we think are, let's say, the top 10 of those sort of projects in that kind of tier three, below sort of punks, and then apes and then maybe cool cats as well, you could sort of cement in at three if you wanted to, or slash gutter cat gang, but whatever. You know, there's a lot of these projects that have durable communities durable, sort of teams that are continuing to do stuff and have the solid floors that have you know, been higher been lower, but are not even close to heading towards zero. It's just a, it's there's so much overlap in the in the actual members at this point, that in order for that many of them to grow or keep sticking around, even though they already have. I feel like a lot of people that are coming into the space need to go into those projects. So it's, I would say a lot of the stuff that seems established now. I can't be sure how established it will stay in the future. Because, you know, the, it may be a long time before we have as many true believers as we're kind of hoping to have in six months. Yeah, no, that's, that's

Roy: 18:34

really true. Because like, I'm not gonna make it like even ones that have like a floor of one to 1.5 eth.

Jamie: 18:40

Right. So here's what I want to say is like the way that you know that that NFT bowl that he talks about where it was so easy to make money, I think that got a lot of people that were sort of cynically in it maybe just for the money to stick around longer and then become a true proponent of the idea and and understand what can actually happen. And because it's not as easy to do that now, I think more of the people trying NFT's out now are going to go away from them. More so than the people that got started in like March because all of all of us are still here. It's like you can't just keep having 100% retention rate of people trying out a new thing, that that was a special time where that happened. So I think there's gonna still be more value going from, you know, projects that in the, in the long run, don't make it to a smaller and smaller number of projects that become bigger and more successful than we kind of ever imagined. Like did anyone really think the Bored Ape Yatch Club was going to be as big as it is now? That long ago? And think that it could be as big as some of us are thinking it might be in five years? I think that same kind of thing. You know, those like theoretical 10 projects I was talking about that are sort of tied fourth, I think maybe one or two of them might just be fucking enormous. And then the other ones are some of the other ones really stagnate and struggle as people just kind of go to something new and more exciting at some point. Yeah,

Roy: 20:14

I agree with all that. Put apes. I mean, who would have

Jamie: 20:18

like very crazy, it's crazy. It really is.

Roy: 20:22

I remember say four months ago, people were talking on Twitter about like, Will apes ever flip punks? And I was like, absolutely no chance. No way. I love the apes, but pumps OG, their floor is you know, it was eight times as much or whatever at the time was like, This is absurd. And then our like, 70% versus punk floor. It's ridiculous. But it was like

Jamie: 20:44

65 to 52 for a second fair today. Jesus? Yeah, um, something it might have been 75. And then one person sold a punk for 65 or something. Yeah. Um, and, you know, not to get sidetracked. But if there if the Crazy Eyes trait didn't exist for apes, they might have already

Roy: 21:03

done it. Is that like a hated trade or something?

Jamie: 21:07

It's definitely the trait that you find the most on the floor? I would say. Anyway, I think I think we've answered this question quite thoroughly. Definitely don't feed the wolf has our third question. And they said, how do you think a reduction in gas fees will affect the market? Nothing will make cheaper, more speculative and fts. Something that people are more willing to try on? For sure. Yeah, I think that's the most obvious one.

Roy: 21:34

Yeah, like, so many projects have a floor of between zero and point five at the moment that it's very difficult to get people to be excited about buying them, just because gas is such a high percentage,

Jamie: 21:47

if you buy an NFT project that the floor is point o five, and the floor doubles, 2.1. And you sell you're you're basically breaking even. And that's just not really feasible to have a thriving market of people that are, you know, willing to buy with the knowledge that they can exit for a similar price to what they entered, because the transaction fees are just too high.

Roy: 22:10

Yeah, it's really crazy. I do think that we will see gas come down a lot again, in the next couple of months. I'm, I'm pretty optimistic about that. Maybe like, three months?

Jamie: 22:21

Yeah, we have we have lots of working scaling solutions, we have new scaling solutions, and we have other blockchains that that people are bringing, you know, particular projects to that, that need that cheaper transaction fees. And so that's kind of just spreading out the demand, and increasing the supply of block space without scaling solutions. Yeah,

Roy: 22:44

I mean, a lot of people like saying, you know, I don't really see NFT's jumping to layer twos, immediately, you know, people have to bridge them, the mach isn't ready for it. And I'm like, that's not really the the solution. The solution, I think to reduce gas fees a lot is what is happening is that a lot of the defi protocols need to move to layer two. And they are and they're like incentivizing users to get like better yields if they use the layer two protocol, which, you know, NFT's only take up a small percentage of the entire usage and block space on eath main net if we get the d phi, like you can tell every time eath goes up or down gas spikes like 600% And you know, it's high while all this defy activity is happening. And and I think like that's what keeps gas consistently high. Yes, a gas will for an empty project can make it spike, but like when there's no gas will just like regular open sea trading and regular minting gas is not that high on eath. It's all the defy activity. And so when that moves over to layer twos and roll ups and other scaling solutions, then I think NFT's will hopefully thrive again on Main net.

Jamie: 23:50

Yeah. Next question. eth the true effect retro retro ether retro ah,

Roy: 23:58

eth. Retro.

Jamie: 24:00

They're the one that made us those those watch

Roy: 24:02

other watches. Yeah, very cool. Our question is, what is your view on the metaverse wearables slash fashion space? Will we ultimately leave it to add it as Nike and LV Lobaton? to shape our to shape or to shape or will we support new web three native names? Right, we

Jamie: 24:24

have a a difference of pronunciation today. We have Adidas. Yes. The first time crazy. Yes. I saddled us. That is crowded us. It is. To me it is. I mean, it's should we answer the question or talk about how to pronounce Adidas. Well, do you say Nike or Nike? Nike? Okay, good.

Roy: 24:50

Yeah, some people say like,

Jamie: 24:52

that's, that's crazy as well.

Roy: 24:54

I think so. Yeah. Anyway, I'm glad we're on the same page there. Ah, yeah, you want to have a good answering that,

Jamie: 25:00

I would say, um, it's something that I am beginning to believe is sort of a real thing that will have, you know, supply and demand in a way that I didn't as much earlier. And I would say, some big brands are going to do well and some web three native brands are going to do well, like, if it's going to really be a thing, there will for sure, be room for completely web three native brands, as well as brands that are forward thinking enough to get into web three. Yeah, I agree with that. I'm sorry, I just want to say one thing. I think a lot of what our job right now is, is to say that, if these products, I'm sorry, if these existing brands want to come to the web three space, that we kind of have to make sure they're doing it in a in a real web three native way. And that will be how we can sort of protect the web three native brands and and find the non web three native brands that are not just trying to take advantage of it, but really understand what it's all about. Yeah,

Roy: 26:15

like, like if one of these brands come in, and they like, we'll sell you an NFT. But you have to use our private blockchain apps to access that. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, we've already seen some web three native brands doing very well. artifact, obviously. Yes, a big one. I just found out a few days ago, that you could pronounce it artifact instead of RTF. Katie?

Jamie: 26:39

Yeah, it took me a while to learn that too. But it was probably at least two months ago, three months ago by now. So I'm a little ahead of you there. But I definitely was just spelling it out for a long time. Yeah.

Roy: 26:49

But yeah, they one of the you know, these? Probably the main web three native, like, fashion Metaverse fashion brand.

Jamie: 26:58

I would say this this we are we all gonna make it son thing that seems to have people involved seems like it might be number two at some point.

Roy: 27:06

That's another one that's like, what is it? 10k t f? Is there any way to pronounce that?

Jamie: 27:12

There might be but that one I don't know about yet. We'll have to wait until we learn that 110

Roy: 27:16

Perfect. And anyway, um, that one, there's apparently something cool happening on the 12th or the night. Oh, yeah. I

Jamie: 27:24

didn't see there was some sort of update. Yeah. Which is?

Roy: 27:28

I mean, that's a cool project.

Jamie: 27:30

Yeah. But so we I think we got our answer here. Right, that there's gonna be room for both and existing brands that that play their cards right will succeed. And the ones that try to take advantage of it will not? Yes, I agree with that. Mike woo says yesterday, you posed a question about what people thought were the most interesting NFT projects in the next two to one, two weeks, they're referring to you here. curious to get your thoughts after reading everyone's responses, especially given your most recent posts about the types of projects that are not going to make it. Yeah, I mean,

Roy: 28:02

there was I got like, there were like, 400 responses to that tweet. It really is crazy how many projects there are just in general coming out every day, like just, it's madness. And the difficulty like is that there's a lot of good projects as well, or projects that sound good, that have had people working on them for months. And I'm just I think there's just not enough money and people in the market to support these projects yet, which is a bit sad. Um, I think there anyway,

Jamie: 28:30

there is enough money, probably. But it's sort of a little bit goes back to that. Second question I think about about how the winners really coalesce into a few big ones. You'd have to take a lot of people that have multiple punks and multiple eights and have them sell one or two or three, and really spread around to all those projects. But the money is there in NFT's I think it's a really support a ton of these projects that are that are kind of floundering. But there's not enough attention for the people that have that much money to pay to all of that stuff, you know what I mean? So that there would need to be some sort of like, almost index funds have these disparate, smaller floor projects for people to put money to work in a really spread out way where they're not getting hammered on transaction fees, buying up, you know, 10 NFT's from 30 different projects that they don't really know much about, or have that much confidence, and you don't I mean,

Roy: 29:30

that's a that's a potentially brilliant idea. It index fund. Yeah.

Jamie: 29:35

Because we, you know, we could go back to the answer from that other question before, but, like that tier for that tier five, there's a lot of projects that to me, are, you know, equally successful or equally likely to succeed that have vaguely similar prices that I would love to be able to put in, you know, three F at in one transaction and have it kind of spread out but it's just there's not really a way to do that. Yeah,

Roy: 30:02

maybe for upcoming projects, we could figure out a way where they can band together and say, you know, we have this idea, this idea, this idea,

Jamie: 30:11

you could also probably do some sort of like weird liquidity pool situation where you kind of just are looking at floor prices. And so you could put in say, like, one cool cat and three gutter, cats or whatever. Yeah. And then you'd sort of have that, like, you know, again, that would only be two projects, but I assume there's some sort of smart way that you could have it be 1015 different projects. And you can kind of just add whatever liquidity you want to it and, and kind of take out whatever different projects you want a piece of. Yeah.

Roy: 30:46

Oh, man, so many cool things. Anyway, to get back to the question, what projects Am I excited about in the next couple of weeks? Yeah, like what you said, you

Jamie: 30:53

got lots of responses. What were the top few, or the top ones that interested you at least? Um,

Roy: 31:00

Hypebeast is one that a lot of people kept. Never heard about which it does look cool. It's like these very high quality 3d Apes. Eight avatars? I think there's like a music component to it. I'm not super fluff world. He

Jamie: 31:17

sounds like a little bit. Yeah,

Roy: 31:19

I'm not super in tune with it. But like, they have 100,000 followers on Twitter. And everyone's been talking about him for a while. So that's, you know, that's a project that's gonna do well, it looks cool. I'm not like, it's nothing. Absolutely revolutionary and mind blowing, but it does seem cool. What was another one that psychedelics drop by Volterra? That's been making a lot of noise last month, you know, very secret, and then coming up with all these crazy whitelist. Challenges and stuff. And yeah, I mean, that's another one where marketing geniuses have basically created enough hype and farmer that that is going to do well,

Jamie: 31:58

did you see that that I'm sorry to interrupt, but you see that project whose like, entire marketing budget was broken down really crazily in a spreadsheet, and it showed just how much they were like, they were doing so much annoying page showing that we all hate, but they had like the most detailed itemized spreadsheet of, of where they spent expenses on it. Did you see this? I did not. Do

Roy: 32:20

you know what project it was?

Jamie: 32:22

I want to say it was like Soul chicks or something like that. I don't. It wasn't something I knew the name of, but I think it started with soul. It was very funny, but

Roy: 32:30

cats funny. Anyway, some projects that I'm excited about that. I mean, I'm obviously gonna be biased to ones that I'm aware of. And I'm aware of these either because, you know, I'm partnering with them, or have known them for a while one that I'm not partnering with, but I do have a meeting with the founder is met kitec I'm always

Jamie: 32:50

another one. I heard of that. There's so many projects. It's amazing. So many

Roy: 32:53

projects. I love it. Yeah, this one, I've been in the discord for months. So like, you know, before I even dreamed of having my own project and collabing, but their thing is to create generative houses. So like for the metaverse, okay. It just seems like a cool idea. Like, you know, we have generated

Jamie: 33:12

follow them on Twitter. It sounds like a familiar concept. Yeah, I saw once.

Roy: 33:17

And I mean, you know, they're really powerhouse team. They, they come from MIT, they've worked at Google, they have an engineering and design backgrounds. They know how to do it, right. And a cool thing is that I think the houses like they're working towards a future where it's possible that you can generate a house, have it in the metaverse, but those designs you could also give like a real life architect, and they can create an actual house out of it as well as like that level of detail, which is cool. And yeah, I don't actually know when the dropping it's just that was another one that I saw in the thread and it was Yeah, it is a cool project. It is different and I like it and I think that the during like the I want to say that the either giving them away for free to begin with or like the trying to hang on yeah, here we go. The NFT will be zero estimate. So that's always cool. I love when projects have like this ground up approach where they will have you know, giving entities a community and then they'll figure out other ways to monetize in the future rather than an immediate upfront cash grab. Okay, um, thing nums that's a project which it's a little bit like the the previous ones I was mentioning was a little bit mysterious as they've been generating a lot of hype because they have some marketing genius around them but the art is cool, and funky and fun and like the discord is just really fun. They got like, I think like someone who's a professional at like a radio broadcast or whatever, and they have their own like radio show called thing FM. And it's just like this fun time in the discord and like, that's something different that's been generating a lot of interest. So, yeah, that's a couple. I mean, I could probably say some more but As far

Jamie: 35:00

as new ones that you didn't know about that, that seemed interesting, that's what you got.

Roy: 35:05

Yeah, coming out in the next I think couple of weeks. I'll throw one more out there. It's Coleman's universe. And it's, it's like it's a profile picture project. It's in that sense is no different. But the artist behind it is like, he's been a digital artist for many, many, many years. So he's already established, he has tons of like, Instagram followers and other way but just like any NFT space, he's relatively new. And his characters, they're cute, they're fun. They're good, like a cool cats vibe. Very much so. And he's trying to build this whole world. And you know, because he's already been a digital artist for so long. And he's characters have pre existed. It's not like, he's just coming in out of nowhere, trying to, you know, just just launch an NFT project. For the sake of it. He's got a product, a character that's been around for, I don't know, 510 years. And now he's like, trying to integrate web three into it. I think that's cool.

Jamie: 35:59

As the same as cool cats, too, like you say, like, we've all seen that picture where, you know, it says maybe 2006 or something. And it's basically just a stand at like a, like a farmers market or whatever. Basically, where Yeah, I guess it's clon had had that very same idea for for cool cats for a long time with just kind of this sort of cartoony art, and he was just sort of selling it. Just a little, little Mirchi type things. And now it's this really big, thriving Metaverse brand

Roy: 36:30

is amazing. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I love when digital artists find success in the empty space like that have been creating digital art for many, many years. Because it has been this like industry where it was never especially lucrative until entities and it's just like, amazing to see these artists finding success. Yeah. Success, at least. Yeah.

Jamie: 36:54

on their own terms to you know,

Roy: 36:56

yes. Yeah. What about you any projects coming up that are interesting, interesting. You.

Jamie: 37:02

Oh, that's a bummer. Because I wasn't thinking about that at all, since they were directly aiming it specifically at you. I would say right now, the thing to me that is new to me that I'm most interested in is that FX hash over on tezo. So I need to get going on that. Like, ASAP. Yeah, it's yeah,

Roy: 37:23

there was one there that everyone in my Discord was talking about. And like saying that as somebody even ping means it, you should check this one out is right up your alley, you would like it. I didn't, you know, I was distracted, didn't get to it. And then like, two days later, they're like, it's going up. 10x. Yeah, rots. Alright. Funds says he is a serious question of thinking about and worth discussing. When someone makes money in the space does someone else lose? If so? Should we more should we be more careful about the concept of a wagon me? existential

Jamie: 37:55

questions? Wag? Me That's an acronym that stands for we all gonna make it? Mm hmm. I've never heard of called wag. Megan. I just kind of read up. Oh, really? Brain? Yeah. Yeah.

Roy: 38:05

I've heard it called wag me,

Jamie: 38:06

although GMI when when it's just those three, I kind of think of that as just the acronym. Anyway. Anyway, this, we have another question that's very similar to this later. I have a pretty thorough answer, I think but I'm, I want to hear you kind of say it first. Okay. Um, I don't

Roy: 38:27

think it's a case where one person makes money, and the other one necessarily loses. Certainly, it's not like an instance situation like, in poker, if you win money, the other person is losing, like in a cash game, you win some trips, that is just insane. It's called a zero

Jamie: 38:40

sum game. And in game theory terms,

Roy: 38:43

yeah. with NFT's. It's like, the other person. Like if you're selling an NFT it's because

Jamie: 38:52

you think it was worth put into it? What I'm saying that there was like effort labor, all of the creators, yes, but and that that is something that throughout human society has been paid for. And now it's, it's being paid for for these as well. People are Yeah, eating something. And that's that that thing did not exist before. And and the world is, to some extent, valuing

Roy: 39:17

it. Yeah. But like, from like, let's say, a secondary market perspective. I think, like, let's say you buy an NFT, 4.08, like you meant it. And then you know, the founders get value, and then you go on and sell it for one eth. You obviously made money, the person who's paying one eth it's not like they're immediately losing money.

Jamie: 39:38

They could, they're getting something that they think is worthwhile.

Roy: 39:41

Exactly. When when a transaction takes place, it's because they think it's worth more than you do. And like maybe someone else in the future will think it's more

Jamie: 39:49

or less use less good use for the money. It's not pure. Exactly.

Roy: 39:54

Yeah. Sometimes people just want to buy it. Like it's more valuable to them than the money and so yeah, anyway, you go on You have more to say about this, I think,

Jamie: 40:02

yeah, I basically would have just kind of expanded on the concept that I brought up at the beginning. But you know, if you want to also look at it from instead of just a laborer perspective where the value is coming from, if you want to look at where the money to pay for that is coming from, you can sort of just look at, look at every single asset in the entire world right now, and the total value for them, and some new project comes out, that's going to sell out and make $2 million, right? If if the total marketplace of all assets in the whole world is you know, $140 trillion, or whatever, you only need to replace everything down such a tiny fraction to be able to go Oh, yeah, you know, what, we're gonna move some of our money that we thought was more valuable in this into this. And so, in some sense there, the the NFT market can be taking place in something of a zero sum economy, but the the place that the money and value is coming from is coming from non NFT. asset values, if people are shifting more of their money from not NFT's to NFT's which mostly I would say is happening, because almost everybody in the world has 0% of her assets and NFT's. Yeah. And and that number is slowly trickling up. Trickle. Yep. Yeah. Okay, I'm ready for the next question. Our next question is, how does the market support such constant value creation, eg art blocks, dropping a curated every one week and generating something like $10 million dollars, their math is 2.4 F times 1000 pieces, times $4,400 per F out of thin air? This person has not checked F price very recently. Let's see.

Roy: 41:59

It just crashed the last night now.

Jamie: 42:02

3500 for a second, which is crazy. But anyway, the the answer to this is basically exactly kind of what we just talked about is that something new is being created, and people are valuing that. And whether or not there's enough value in those things, or money in the system for that to perpetuate is is sort of up up for everybody to decide with their own money. But it to me, it seems like the amount of value that is being created. And the amount of money in a global economy is is more than enough to sustain things like what the person is asking

Roy: 42:41

here. Yeah, I mean, like$10 million. It's a lot of money. But when you comparing it to literally trillions of dollars, it's nothing. It's it's very, very, very little drop in the bucket. Yeah. drop in the ocean. Uh, so yeah, I mean, the market can support a ton of money, as you know, more people find out about NFT's think it's a valuable place that they want to divert some of their personal value to, or whether it's, you know, funds or corporations wanting to invest some of their money into it's there's a lot of money in the world. And I mean, if you

Jamie: 43:19

if you look at the way, like a lot of these billionaires, for instance, net worths have gone up over the last 10 years, let's say, you know that their net worth is going up by $25 million a day on average or something like that. Totally ridiculous. Yeah, for like the Musk's and beis doses over the last couple years. And I would think that an artbox artists doing a curated drop, you know, they're three months of work or whatever is, is, it's realistic to think that that's worth as much as, you know, one day's work or six hours of work of a Jeff Bezos or something like that. There's an obscene amount of money in this system and it and it goes to all different places based on where people think it deserves to go or where people you know, maneuver the lever levers of society to make it go. I think it's definitely reasonable for artists who are forward thinking enough to get some millions of that once a week.

Roy: 44:32

Capitalism it's a hell of a thing.

Jamie: 44:34

It's it is it is wild. And this is a really new facet of it that you know, also just to kind of expand on this even more, there's less middlemen. So if if an artist did as much work as an art box curated artists did before they would be doing it for say Disney, and the movie would be grossing you know, hundreds of millions of dollars for Disney slash Pixar. and they would be getting their $200,000 salary. Now, the artist is getting many millions of dollars. And there's there's just less of a corporate structure around that artist to take little pieces of it that they don't necessarily deserve, or, you know, are looking at a project, you know, a movie and animated movie, in this case, that's that is much more complicated, and is involving the labor of a lot more people, and so deserves to get a lot more people paid. But if it's just an art, if you're just looking at an art drop, and the art is that good, and people want it that much, it makes a ton of sense for it to be able to garner that much money and for it to flow directly to the artist, because they're the one doing all of the work necessary for it, basically. Yeah, I mean, especially like,

Roy: 45:51

to make it as successful artists in a T space, you have to like, market yourself as well. And that's like, where a lot of the middlemen have been justifying the cost from in the traditional art space, it's like, we will market your art and get it out there. Now. It's like the artists that are saying, going on Twitter, having their own discords partnering with whoever trying to get an OP looks. And I mean, I guess art blocks is acting a little bit like a middleman, they take 10%. But you know, for the most part, artists are getting the bulk of the money directly into their pocket that would otherwise be split up between middlemen and and galleries and all sorts of other places.

Jamie: 46:26

Yeah, there's a lot more of them. And there is much more opaqueness, and the numbers are more egregious in the in the non NFT. space for sure. Yeah. All right. Uh,

Roy: 46:40

Manny says, Why do you think Roboto is haven't fully bloomed into the blue chip category? Prices staying pretty stagnant, even when unbelievable news is dropped, ie the TV show

Jamie: 46:52

with time.

Roy: 46:55

Right, sort of alluded to this before? I agree. Yeah. When we were talking about like the 10 projects in the like, tier three, slash four, yeah, 0.5 to four eth range, let's say that this big wide area where there's tons of projects that they've been moving up and down within that range as well. But I guess it's very difficult to break out in pot, because there's a lot of competition in there. And they're not just competing with one another, but also all these new projects that are dropping.

Jamie: 47:27

And also, you know, if you're looking at the, again, the wider sphere of assets or entertainment dollars, there's other things that are competing with too, especially if you're looking at something like a TV show, it's like in the NFT space, a TV show is sort of a big deal and a new thing that not a lot of projects have. But let's be realistic right there. There's 1000s of TV shows. Yeah. So just have a TV show within the NFT space. Yeah, that that's, that's novel, but there's a few of them doing that. And ultimately, most TV shows are not that successful. And there's a lot of competition to try to make a successful TV show.

Roy: 48:08

It is tough to make a successful TV show.

Jamie: 48:13

Yeah, I mean, it's, if this was five

Roy: 48:17

months ago, or even maybe three months ago, that sort of news would probably have skyrocketed the project more than it did. But it is no longer like completely amazing novel thing to have a TV show, it is not no longer like a complete completely groundbreaking thing to partner with a massive Corporation, we've seen tons of big partners

Jamie: 48:37

timeline has already done other things before. So it's not like whoa times getting involved, it's like time is already involved. They also you could look at like time to drop the, the floor price for those is a lot lower than the mid price was. So people aren't necessarily thinking that time in the NFT space is a guaranteed success. Also, we don't have it doesn't have a TV show, right? It has an announcement of a TV show, which is a lot less, if the TV show comes out and people like it, then you can expect more but but an announcement of a future thing is just there's a lot of projects that are doing that. And yeah, also just the value and floor price of our bottles. It's high. You know, he's saying it's not a blue chip, but there's 99% of projects that are less blue chip than Roboto is by any metric that you would use, right. And we just have a very high standard for blue chip for the most part at this point. And for a project like robotics to make that jump. It's it's you need more than announcement of a TV show. Yeah,

Roy: 49:44

it's it's tough and it's getting tougher.

Jamie: 49:49

There's also Yeah, I want to say like a lot of these projects that are trying to do existing media things. Um I think in some ways that's sort of the wrong thing to do. Because, you know, again, talking about a TV show, there's so much competition, competition and TV shows, what if you did an NFT project that was creating value and increasing the awareness of the brand in a way that was new and was was native to NFT's? I don't know, necessarily what that looks like. But, but there's got to be ways to do it that aren't just TV shows, movies, books, comic books, right, like, do something new, do something native to the space? Yeah.

Roy: 50:35

I mean, I do think as we go forward more and more, it just is going to be tougher for projects to stand out without being innovative, without doing something new. And those that do take a risk during something new, and pull it off. Those are the ones that we're going to see wildly succeed. And, like, historically, that's been the case. I mean, you look at all the top projects now, crypto punks, they did something new obviously 10,000 generative NFT collection way back then. But apes kinda did something new that they introduced this whole club this community this aspect to where it's not just an NFT, but it acts as like a membership token. Cyber Congress they introduced like the ERC 20 utility token cool cats, it was a, you know, an already established digital artist entering the scene. You know, they they made their profile pictures left facing that, you might say that's a minor thing. But you know, it was new. And yeah, you know, punks, comics, you know, first NFT comic project that and then they change into this massive Ponzi Ponzi nomic type system. But yeah, you know, by trying new things.

Jamie: 51:44

But if you're like, if you look at some of these projects, for instance, punks, comics, or something like apes, like the equivalent of a TV show, is a very small part of it, like in terms of the pole. What pixel vault ecosystem, their comic book is a very small part of it. So for robot owes to, you know, how much do you want it to jump up? Because they've added on a thing that's just a very, the equivalent sort of a very small part of these existing blue chips. Like, I don't know if this person is aware of the difference in how much money is spent on video games versus other media like music, TV and movies, but it's it's a much bigger industry at this point. And in what one day, the Bored Ape Yatch Club is having a whole game coming out, not just an announcement that a game is coming in the future, but there's a game um, and and so just again, to reiterate, that is that is not necessarily a thing that can just rock like, what's the one or two they're all on like gravestones. They've been putting out heads, TV shows, basically, and their stoner cats that that's got its TV show. And there's the the horse one as well. Blacktree show? Yeah, you have a guest spot on a TV show for an NFT project. And they're in their floor is even lower than Retratos. Yeah. So a lot. Yeah, by a lot. So, yeah, that that's the other thing we should lean into, that I had gone into, but Bravados is so much more of a blue chip than so many projects that, you know, to have a project be that successful relative to the rest of NFT's and still be going why isn't it more successful? That's like, you're being kind of greedy at that point. Yeah,

Roy: 53:40

I mean, it's, it's just tough to be more successful than, you know, a floor that's hovering between, say, point five and point eight or one eight. Yeah, he

Jamie: 53:50

used to make me laugh when, like, people in the artbox discord would be like, how come the floor of this project is only three F? It's like, I don't know, if that seems kind of like a lot of money at this point. Right? Yeah, they're just they're going why isn't it fidenza? Why isn't it half of fidenza? Why isn't it this other project? I don't know. It's just it's not the market doesn't think it is. Yeah. But but the market does think it's quite fucking valuable. Like, do the math of the robot is four times the amount of robots NFT's that are and then put some sort of multiplier on for the fact that a bunch of them are obviously not floor and are worth more, and the market is saying it's a fucking valuable successful project. 20 million?

Roy: 54:36

Yeah. 20 to 40 million, let's say, which is a lot accessible,

Jamie: 54:40

right for a mission announcement of a TV show. Yeah,

Roy: 54:44

I mean, they have all this stuff going, of course, of course, but like how much

Jamie: 54:47

how much do they want the value of it to go up from the announcement of a TV show? It's just that that's a big expectation. I think that's probably unrealistic. Yeah,

Roy: 54:57

especially with a market that is too are relatively small, like, let's say there's 200 250,000 People in the NFT space. That's not that many you compare like, Okay, you say maybe 100,000

Jamie: 55:08

of them are only an active. Yeah. Yeah.

Roy: 55:12

Like he can be, you might want to compare it to like, coins in the crypto space like, obviously everyone's comparisons to Doge. But even like, you know, the the random old coins that have, you know, 100 million 200 million market caps, it's just not the same because there's literally maybe 100 to 1000 times as many people into the you know, regular crypto ERC 20 scene then there is the NFT space, and there's just, you know, not as much money flowing around. So what is the success is is very relative, and I think robots are successful,

Jamie: 55:45

definitely successful like it. Yes, it's very difficult to me that a project now, of course, it could, it could go lower, and it could become something that is definable as not successful. But I don't know the why isn't something a blue chip is just is a tough question. Yeah. All right. I think we answered that very thoroughly. Rich says, What are your thoughts on Bored Ape Yatch Club mutant serum or similar? Consumable asset valuation? I think we touched on this in the Barcelona episode. Just sort of really looking at it from a supply perspective. Yeah, I don't think

Roy: 56:25

my opinion has really changed. I think as more people consume the serums, the value of the serum will go up, just as it becomes, I guess I'll interject

Jamie: 56:34

I gave up on that theory. After a while. Yeah, but I'm starting to gravitate back to it a little bit. But But I came to the conclusion after a while that serums, were not going to get rewarded by Hugo labs, the same way that mutants are, and the only things that you can possibly get out of a serum is a mutant. So even though the supply was always going to go up from you into and down for serums, I just gave up on the idea that there would be the demand for them. But I think I, I may have been wrong, because as various apes that have not especially for empties, I would say, as various apes have a get get more successful and have not gotten an empty yet it's it's possible, it'll become more and more of a big deal to them, and their sort of brand and their feelings of how much they're taking part in the community and, and their status within the community, they're going to really want that, too. And it just, it might take them a while to get enough money to, to be able to do it. But But then that means that the person who's still holding the serum at that point, can really squeeze them for more. Yeah, no, I

Roy: 57:50

think that they just are going to be people that want like the full set for their ape they want like their ape, and then the M one and m two. And I guess, you know, M three is kind of very full set, but

Jamie: 58:01

that's exclusion, but it's not related to the Yeah, yeah. Um,

Roy: 58:07

so yeah, the way I've been thinking about it lately is that, I think, probably, if you have an ape, and you have an M one and m two serum, there's probably more value in using them on your app and having the mutants, because it seems likely to me that, like say, the token comes out for the broader ecosystem, I can see them giving rewards to all apes and all mutants, but not to the serums, just because it's not necessarily part of the system. So in that case, the mutants are worth more than serums. But I still, for

Jamie: 58:44

instance, for instance, you can play this game that's coming out tomorrow if you have a mutant, but not if you just have a serum. Exactly. So yeah,

Roy: 58:54

I think the utility value for having a mutant is more but strictly speaking, I also think that the value of serums will go up long term as the supply dwindles. And you know, I have one m one, M, one serum left, that I'm just going to hold just because you know, I have several mutants, now I have mutated my forever ape, M one and m two. And it's like, Alright, I'm just gonna have this long term collectible. It's basically a, you know, a collectible that has utility as well, and maybe people will want to pay a ton for in the future. But um,

Jamie: 59:31

yeah, yeah. It's interesting, too, that like, you can't, you can't do it ever again, once you've already used it. So for instance, if somebody has a really high end ape, right, and they use them one and they use them too, and eventually those gets split up amongst different owners and different wallets. And then somebody comes along and buys the really high end date. They can't get the mutants just by buying another serum, that mutant already exists and they have to pay the mutant owner. So you have to To think about that a little bit in terms of the theoretical future value of people really wanting the mutant what that comes with a rape, those mutants are going to already exist a lot of times, and you can't get them with the serum. That's a really good point. I hadn't thought of that. I mean, yeah. They also asked, or similar interest. Interesting. Wow, it is. Yeah. I would say about

Roy: 1:00:24

the mean bridge also asking the question, what are your thou Bored Ape Serum ghts on the Bored Ape Yatch Club seerum or similar consumable asset valuation? Okay. I didn't see that. I can't think of too many similar asset.

Jamie: 1:00:34

Yeah, there's like the maybe the gutter gang has mint passes for pigeons and dogs, or at least did for a while. Maybe? Yeah. It's similar. I guess it's kind of the same. Yeah. Very similar. Kinda. Yeah, I guess so. You know, but they're each other. Yeah. It's a little different. Yeah, it is a little different. But I think I think we covered it. Yeah. Is there's not really other super similar ones. And then a ton of ones that are slightly similar. Just any mint passes similar. Yeah, um, next question. Zug bros says, How do you think on chain gaming, like ether orcs will continue to be successful? Is polygon the inevitable solution? I think it's one inevitable solution. Yeah,

Roy: 1:01:20

I think we touched on it before as well, like these on chain gaming project, I think, yeah, I was actually talking about Aetherium specifically, how they had either migrated or planning to migrate to Polygon, because being on chain on eth main net is just it's it's just takes up so much money in and liquidity out of the ecosystem, that it's not a good long term model.

Jamie: 1:01:40

Yeah. And but to expand on what how I said it's, it's one of them are part of the solutions, there's going to be other scaling solutions on a theorem and there's going to be other blockchains that have some level of success and, you know, long term existence that interact with gaming NFT's as well. So I think it's, it is part of the inevitable solution, or at least something very similar to it, because maybe, maybe in three years, Polygon doesn't succeed, because something else is doing it better. But definitely, stuff will not be just on f may not and there will be solutions, such as polygon.

Unknown: 1:02:22

Yep. agree with that.

Roy: 1:02:24

All right. Thoughts on Metaverse related investments? That is a broad question.

Jamie: 1:02:29

Yeah, I think they're thinking specifically of the VR Worlds that are getting called meta versus so much now. So stuff like box and axles and decentraland.

Roy: 1:02:39

I mean, I've been very bullish on them for a long time. It's, it seems basically inevitable that, you know, we will be spending a lot of time in these so called meta verses and interacting with some of them, you know, sandbox decentraland somnium, space, crypto voxels and tons more that are popping up. Long term very, very bullish. I think they have pumped a ton in the last couple of months. You know, ever since Facebook came out saying hey, Facebook, we're mad right.

Jamie: 1:03:12

Facebook announcement all that prices just stored

Roy: 1:03:15

and haven't really stopped. I mean, I've

Jamie: 1:03:19

been waiting. I think they're ERC 20s did pull back maybe a little bit harder in this, like one day bear market that we just experienced. Oh, yeah, they had also exams like, that also run up so much more to

Roy: 1:03:32

Yeah, they went up so much. soundbox is down to like, credit card down to like $5 at, um, it was so much lower for us. But it did hit I think like $8 or something at one point. Yeah. Which is insane. Yeah, it is. It was like 30 to 70 cents. But most of the

Jamie: 1:03:53

I would say that. I think in terms of valuing them versus other NFT's. The Metaverse stuff is more purely future based than a lot of the other stuff I think people are are legitimately getting value out of their profile pictures and the communities that come with them in a way that you're just not from stuff like sandbox land yet. Because there's just not people. People are on Twitter in a way that they're not on sandbox. People are on Twitter and discord in a way that they are not in decentraland Yeah, I think

Roy: 1:04:34

just a small extent decentraland somnium and crypto voxels people are getting some value out because the sandbox

Jamie: 1:04:40

the Alpha just go to it's yes, it's just but it's just starting. Whereas you know, it's a little bit more like the gaming NFT's for games that are not out yet. Were definitely some of them, it seems to me will be super valuable, but it's it's a lot of winners and losers in the future. And it might be anybody Guess. Hmm.

Roy: 1:05:02

And the server new ones popping up as well. Yeah, a lot of projects are saying, hey, what we want to do won't really work in the sandbox. It won't really work in the central and we're just going to create our own little metaverse. Because, because they can, I guess, and I mean, NFT worlds is one that that sort of popped up and gone crazy the last couple of weeks. But I mean, there's tons more. It will be interesting to see how all these meta verses interact and play out in the next year or two. Yeah, especially when we're five years. Yeah, that's gonna be crazy decade yet as the roaring 20s. What a time to be alive.

Jamie: 1:05:44

Yep. All right, next question. Chef NFT says, can you talk more about NFT-fi in your loan strategies? Are there any other interesting NFT liquidity tools that you've seen? This is more,

Roy: 1:05:57

I think, a question for you. I've only used it as a you know, I borrow?

Jamie: 1:06:01

Yeah, we both talk because we've both only used it in one direction and that are the opposite. Hmm, okay. I have literally never taken a loan out. I want to know, and you've only done that.

Roy: 1:06:13

Yeah, that's true. Actually, I've basically taken loans when I wanted slash needed liquidity to invest in something and I didn't want to sell my NFT's, either, because I was just so extraordinarily bullish on the market that I literally didn't have anyone to sell. And, you know, this was probably the case in June, July, August, I think, as well, which fortunately turned out to be

Jamie: 1:06:38

Yeah, you're right. You're levering up a lot. And kind of rolling loans into new loans. And just Yes, staying very invested.

Roy: 1:06:45

Yes. And it was always, you know, it is risky. But I always knew that, you know, worst case scenario, I had other funds that I could use to repay the loans I could sell. Like, I was like, if the market NFC market tanked, I wouldn't necessarily lose my NFT's. Unless I, you know, it tanked so much that the value of the entertainment would

Jamie: 1:07:04

live and learn, you would lose your NFT's, but not your ability to pay rent. And any

Roy: 1:07:09

Yes, yeah, yeah, that was never even close to being on the table. Um, and then Yeah, sort of later

Jamie: 1:07:15

on, it was very close to being on the table. Yeah. Oh, boy.

Roy: 1:07:26

And then like, sort of, as time went on a little bit, I did keep taking loans out when I had plenty of NFT's and even like a little bit of eth. And it was more of just a convenience thing where I was like, I could take a loan out for a month, at, you know, whatever the at once I got one for 0% interest rate, which was great. You know, sometimes it was 10% 20%, which is a lot. But it was also a case of, well, I could do that. Or I could spend four hours going through my wallet deciding what to list pricing it right. And I just sort of valued time over money for a while. Can

Jamie: 1:08:01

I pause for a second? Yeah. You said paying 10 or 20%? And that's a lot. Are you saying? That was the interest that you're paying? Or that was like the yearly percentage, because you know, the number that they show on NFT? Fi is the yearly one. And that's, that's a very low interest rate for the average loan these days there.

Roy: 1:08:20

Yeah, for my bigger loans, it was I think, 10 20%, there was some smaller ones that I did, I never went over 100%. So 20 to 50%, I think is where most most of my loans were with a couple that were in the zero to, I would say,

Jamie: 1:08:38

anywhere in the, like 35, or 40 to 75 range for yearly percentages is very common these days. And stuff that's like 20 or below is really like that's for squiggles and apes and really premium stuff. Yeah, are really sort of more confident and stuff. Yeah.

Roy: 1:09:01

I mean, that was basically the stuff that I was learning. I was like, art blocks, apes. I think that was basically it. Um, and, yeah, I mean, and then like, now, I don't do it anymore. And I'm sort of on the reverse side now, where I have a bunch of eth. And I'm trying to decide what I want to do with it to get the most yield. And you know, you can stake it and get out, you know, three to 10% a year depending on risk level, and then the protocol and all that. But you could use NFT-fi and potentially with a little bit more time and effort, get these 2050 70 100% loans that, you know, if you're smart and doing it in a way that you aren't really risking like that much. If the market crashes like you, you don't give out loans that are you know, 80% of the full price of something. Yeah, it seems like a good option. And this is sort of what you've been doing for a while now. Right? Yeah. And you're

Jamie: 1:09:57

paying as the person who's By offering loans on other people's NFT's, you're paying no gas, unless you have to foreclose on it and take ownership of the NFT, which is, especially for smaller amounts of money, way better than trying to do defy stuff. Because you're it's still happening on F main net to its I'm using rapt ether and paying no, no fees on either end of it.

Roy: 1:10:25

It's amazing. I think I am gonna stop doing more of it. It seems like a cool thing.

Jamie: 1:10:30

Yeah, I'm enjoying it. And it's sort of a, it's it's a little bit similar to just making very low floor bids. In a sense. It's just that basically the bid is is not allowed to get accepted until, you know, whenever the expiration date is for the loan, you know what I mean? Yeah. Which, which you're taking risk on the floor coming down a lot. And so that's, that's where I have to think about it. So actually, loan strategies, we haven't really got into that so much. Let me let me just say that if I'm making a loan, offer, my starting point, basically is 50% of the floor and a 50%. AP. Why that that's just my baseline, and then I'll move those up and down based on how long the loan is for and how much I want the NFT. Basically, it's pretty much that simple. But that's my baseline.

Roy: 1:11:27

I see some people during like three months, Lauren's like that is so long in NFT space, I

Jamie: 1:11:32

can I've I've never done a 90 day one. And I've only made a 90 day offers very, very rarely. Because to me, for that to be safe, I have to offer such a small portion of the present value of the NFT that the other person doesn't usually think it's worth it. And so and so I just can't strike a deal with people in the market for those right now.

Roy: 1:11:54

Yeah, I mean, like up locks up some envelopes, stuff has come down 90 plus percent in four months, three months, right. So yeah, it is not inconceivable that.

Jamie: 1:12:06

And other stuff has done sort of similar to like, if you had done it near the top for stuff like Metaverse, or loot, you'd lose similarly, out of luck as the lender,

Roy: 1:12:17

have you used any other protocols like data?

Jamie: 1:12:22

The only thing that's close I guess, is when I very very, very first got into this. I bought some punks tokens from like a liquidity pool. And FTX or something like that. Yeah. But I haven't really used anything else. I guess what else is there out there? Fractional art, I think is the biggest one that seems to be to me the the one that I would respect the most, but I honestly don't really know about almost any of them.

Roy: 1:12:50

Yeah, the only one other one I know about is Stata, which I think is the same thing as NFT-fi, really. Just different, different protocols, but it's peer to peer lending.

Jamie: 1:13:00

So not much in the way of other information on different liquidity tools, but but we're both pretty experienced on one end on NFT. Fi.

Roy: 1:13:10

Alright, NFT only says how do you feel about Mecca apes?

Jamie: 1:13:15

I don't even know I never heard of them.

Roy: 1:13:17

Alright, I suspected that might have been the answer. I just wanted to include it just in case. Okay.

Jamie: 1:13:22

Next question, I guess. Yeah. Protein Powder, gave us a lot of questions. And so we'll just start here for people new to the space and interested in starting their own NFT project. How important is it to have a personal Twitter account and to be active in the community?

Roy: 1:13:39

I'm not sure there's anything more important. It is.

Jamie: 1:13:44

You delete a Twitter and you kind of need a Discord. I would say Yeah, they're pretty much mandatory. Yeah, it's like

Roy: 1:13:54

so difficult to launch to have

Jamie: 1:13:57

in web time. So like you needed a website and like an email address or whatever you exact web 2.0 You need an F address. You need a Twitter and you need a discord right now.

Roy: 1:14:08

Yeah, it's it might change in the future. Probably well, we'll move to other things will be Metaverse sort of on Discord but right now, so much happens on Twitter. It's It's insane. And then like I always say people go from Twitter to like, Discord. It's like Twitter is where you find out the first bit of information and then like demons join in. Yeah, exactly.

Jamie: 1:14:32

That sounds right to me. Okay, next question from them. They said how do you stand out in the NFT slash crypto community that seems like this person is is looking at it from the point of view of a creator and they want to know about in general, how do they succeed and how do they get attention because you know, this is this is related to their previous question.

Roy: 1:14:55

Yeah. It is. The most difficult thing to do in the I think it is, if you have a project if you're a creator, and you're trying to stand out and get people interested and involved enough to want to meant literally, you're competing with hundreds if not 1000s of other people and projects in the same spot. And there isn't that large of an audience yet. So would you

Jamie: 1:15:21

say stuff like bothering you for attention and stuff like that is a good way to do it. Send DMS to Roy stuff like that.

Roy: 1:15:29

Oh boy. We're trying to get hit so many today. It's crazy. Oh boy, it's um it's just

Jamie: 1:15:36

show shilling on Discord is that would you say that's a good

Roy: 1:15:39

way it's a good way to get banned or blocked

Jamie: 1:15:43

the amount of DMS I can't believe I haven't turned my Discord DMS off at this point, it seems very stupid because I could probably just turn them on temporarily every time I'm actually making a post in a discord that could lead to a DM I'm deleting 10 a day.

Roy: 1:15:59

You should if you're not already, set your status to invisible on Discord. It reduces the spam DMS by like 90% and less idea people that actually want to DM you DM you. Um, but yeah, I mean to stand out it's do something different. Like that is that will get you noticed if you enter the

Jamie: 1:16:20

value, and yeah, and do something different. are

Roy: 1:16:24

provided values and like, yeah,

Jamie: 1:16:27

just important. No, I don't be a dick to that's probably good. necessarily make you stand out. But it will mean if you stand out. It's for reasons that are good instead of bad. Yeah, there's a lot of people developing really shitty. What am I looking for here? Nine impressions, but like projects? No, no, just marketing tactics? No, no, no. Oh, God. It's like, it's like the way that society views you. What is that called?

Roy: 1:16:57

reputations? Yes,

Jamie: 1:16:59

yes. Yeah, exactly what I was looking for reputation. There's a lot of people that are standing out, but it's they're standing out in a bad way right now. Yeah. And you don't want to be one of those. No. Money one. Yeah, there but like, yeah, I don't know. That's, that's not the right approach? I don't think no. Alright, let's get to the next

Roy: 1:17:22

question. What are your thoughts on at apes in space, NFT, and other celebrity slash wrap up profile picture collections? What are your thoughts on the profile picture collection as a whole? Do you think we will continue to see 10,000 profile picture collections in the future?

Jamie: 1:17:40

I don't know what that is. It's in space. And neither do I. Okay, so that's our

Roy: 1:17:45

it's a celebrity slash wrap up their collection? Yeah,

Jamie: 1:17:49

the question would be very poorly worded if it's not. Yeah. What are my thoughts? We've talked about our thoughts on profile picture collections. As a as a whole genre? I can't tell if they're asking about this specific one. The way it's worded. It kind of sounds like it is.

Unknown: 1:18:06

But

Jamie: 1:18:08

yeah, profile picture collection

Unknown: 1:18:11

as a whole. Yeah.

Roy: 1:18:13

But then the next question, do you think 10,000 will continue in the future? Um, I mean, obviously, we can't speak on this specific one. We don't know it. In terms of 10,000, or picture collections, I think that we will see them for the foreseeable future. It is I don't,

Jamie: 1:18:30

we don't need it. But people lack the creativity to come up with a reason have more or less, which is is a little sad to me. And so they just think, okay, 10,000 is a good number, and they just do it. Yeah,

Roy: 1:18:43

I mean, we see some that like 6000. And so definitely,

Jamie: 1:18:46

not only other, it's not only others that 10k, for sure. But there's a disproportionate number, I guess it is sort of a pleasantly round number that is vaguely close to what the market will support these days. And so in that sense, yeah, it, it kind of is a logical one. But I would just love for people to have some sort of reason why they'd prefer to have 6000 or 18,000 and do collections of that size. I would like that.

Unknown: 1:19:18

It's it's also a case of

Roy: 1:19:20

if you're looking at the most successful projects that basically all 10k projects, like cool cats bought apes

Unknown: 1:19:26

punks. The exception would be

Roy: 1:19:29

either conchs Well, yeah, the Genesis are 1000. But then they expanded with it with other things. And now we're seeing some more of that a little bit. But yeah, I mean, 10 1000s Round number market. It's just like the status quo. And it is what most people will just navigate toward what

Jamie: 1:19:46

else I would say is that my experience being into generative art as a more serious art form, like the art block stuff that we talked about a lot has led me to think about The diversity of the algorithm that makes this stuff and some of these projects that do do profile pictures like 10,000, you end up with a lot of them that are identical with just a different background color. And so I would say for projects like that, I would love to see ones that have a algorithm that doesn't have enough diversity sell less, because that new those are not as different. Those those tokens are getting pretty close to fungible to me at that point. Yeah. Like, the one I think of is the sort of big Doge one, it seems like a lot of those were very similar. And then there might be like, four identical ones. And the only differentiator is just the background color, like over and over again, with different setups, that to me is not enough different traits. Not enough. Yeah, to support as many as as they ended up doing, you know, if it was a collection of 200 You wouldn't you would never have seen that with without a crazy, you know, random occurrence.

Unknown: 1:21:05

Yeah. I think in the

Roy: 1:21:08

future, we will see, collection sizes increase just as the space increases. Um, you know, if you are an insanely hyped project, and you have 2 million people in your discord or like something absurd, and it's like, you could sell 10,000 Great, you could also sell 500,000, and like people will buy it, then it's like, why wouldn't you? And yeah,

Jamie: 1:21:32

if we go back to the question from ether retro to talking about sort of Metaverse, wearables and fashion like if that becomes more of a thing, and it is nicely interoperable, it will be okay to have bigger collections of of profile pictures and 3d avatars and stuff that don't necessarily have all the diversity in the algorithm because people can express themselves as unique and different from the other ones that look similar through add on NFT's of Metaverse, wearables and fashion and stuff like that. Vehicle. Yeah. Metaverse land, all that stuff can sort of inform and, and change and make more unique the identity that if it was just a profile picture that wasn't interacting with these other things in the in the future? Wouldn't be as differentiated.

Unknown: 1:22:24

Yeah. Yeah,

Roy: 1:22:26

it's gonna be interesting to see what happens with with so much of this, but like in the future when we have these wearables and like, will people even necessarily be able to tell what the underlying profile picture avatar is? If you have a costume on, like, that's a wearable, you could just become whatever you want.

Unknown: 1:22:43

Yeah, it'll be interesting. That, that

Jamie: 1:22:46

that could be a whole sort of interesting sort of sociological experiment that people might do where, you know, you have a very cheap or very expensive profile picture. And then you kind of drape it in this other NFT that that doesn't let you see it. And then you go, how does how is society treating me and then you pull the veil, it's almost like a hidden camera thing. And you can kind of see how that sort of affects people's perception. Like, that's a real thing. Some people,

Roy: 1:23:15

this is gonna be so cool.

Unknown: 1:23:17

Yeah, it is. I'm so excited. Let's see.

Jamie: 1:23:21

Any thoughts on packs? Latest drop merge. What do you think about the mechanics of merging and fts?

Roy: 1:23:27

Um, this question from Luca bazooka, I, I am quite ignorant on everything pack.

Jamie: 1:23:35

Yeah, I was just saying this in our in our group chat the other day, and a couple people were saying basically the same thing that for as big and successful as he has been, or they have been in the space, I haven't bought or even thought about buying any of them. Largely because the number seems so outrageous that I don't feel like Pac needs me. And I don't necessarily feel like they will be that different or interesting or valuable because of the numbers so big, but they're definitely doing more interesting, like performative art type stuff with NFT's than than almost anybody. Yeah, I think that it's, it's sort of a case of where like, given the track record,

Roy: 1:24:22

it seems unwise from a financial perspective to bet against PAC, even though they're selling ludicrous amounts of entities and ludicrous amounts of money, that they have found ways to like be innovative, introduced burn mechanisms and this new merge mechanism which is cool that the Last Poets thing was cool and interesting and all of that. It's it's just been something that's largely passed me by I bought two of the pages just cuz I wanted some exposure to pack way back in the day. Yeah, and then

Jamie: 1:24:53

we want to get mechanics of the merging. What does that mean? I'm I'm not

Roy: 1:24:59

like fully aware. Wherever my basic understanding is that if you buy a merge a token on an on the secondary market, and you have one in your wallet, it like it merges the two. And like the the size of it increases, like there's a magic number.

Jamie: 1:25:16

Yes, it's sort of like those old like browser games where you just die and try to absorb more and more. But with entities that have like a single numerical trait that is kind of going up.

Roy: 1:25:30

There was also an interesting mechanic, or like a twist to the minting where like, if you meant to 10, you got one for free. But if you minted 100, you got 20 for free. And if you missed it, 1000, you got 33 or 300. Anyway, it the more you mentioned, the more you got for free. So someone created merged out. And they just created us like I think was juice box or whatever it is to, you know, crowdsource and funded. And so I bought some of that because I wanted, I wanted some exposure, and it seemed like this was just the best way because they could buy more, get more for free. Plus,

Jamie: 1:26:12

this sounds so interesting. My my brain is pinging with thoughts about that, but continue.

Roy: 1:26:18

Yeah, let me just quickly finish a two other benefits to going via the Dow is that they had access to like the presale, which had a lower price and they bought a bunch there. And also pack has said there will be some additional benefits for a the top 100 holders and be even more for the top five holders. So it just made more sense to invest in the Dow, rather than me buying 10 myself. Obviously there's some risk involved with the Dow but I think the reward makes it worth it.

Jamie: 1:26:51

Yeah, that's that's so interesting. Because I'm in a in a non web three space, that's a little bit of like an ugly thing to me in a way where it's it sort of disproportionately is benefiting whales. But then like you immediately get to this doubt thing, where the way that all this stuff is sort of open source and can be done in a trustless way allows smaller players to come together to be effectively whales themselves as a community, which is awesome. It is

Roy: 1:27:29

yeah, I agree. I generally don't like projects, whether it's a if you miss more, you get more of a discount. But yeah, now that we have these,

Jamie: 1:27:37

we have ways to make that yeah, just a benefit to the view. And even you know, the way you're talking about it, if we're talking about it being disproportionately beneficial to whales, you're pretty close to a whale. But to you, it still seems like the best way to get into it is in one of these Dows where it's where it is a community thing. And where anybody can can take advantage of that. Buying in bulk sort of discount, even without that much capital. Yeah, I mean, even if you're a whale, if you say

Roy: 1:28:14

being a whale, let's say

Jamie: 1:28:16

a whale with a bunch of fish around. Exactly. You're eating more. Exactly.

Roy: 1:28:20

I put three eth into merge DAO, I could have just gone and spent three eth myself but with merged I was like I put three east and then it's like combined with a tons of other people putting in point oh, five, two, I don't know, whatever the most was 1020. I'm sure someone put in Yeah. And

Jamie: 1:28:36

so yeah, this math kind of works out in this particular case, because there are these specific thresholds. You know, if they were talking about buying a certain percentage of the total. You know what I mean? Like in that sense, maybe the math would work out that your three f would be equally valuable in both places. But the way that they're that the specific benefits work here, you're giving yourself a much better chance of getting any benefit at all. We're back. We're back. Roy, your internet's not great. And we're having our things drop a few times. So we apologize for for having these little things.

Roy: 1:29:14

Yeah, the internet in my entire building has been out for I think, like four or five days now. At least that's what we hear. Like it's it's difficult to check your own company. Well, no, not easily. It's like to call them they don't speak English very well. We don't know the German very well. Yeah, we don't speak German. They want to know the like online if you try and go to the service. That is I want to know the phone number associated with the DSL, landline. We don't know that. I messaged a landlord. His reply. He's gonna call them a Monday. It's a whole thing. It was great because like, the first couple of days when it went down, I was like, take

Jamie: 1:29:56

a break. Yeah. Great for me. Less great for Rachel.

Roy: 1:30:00

But you know, she could still go to the office and work but then the weekend hit my break ended, we wanted to play some video games and Dota and I wanted to have you know, more things. Yeah have like streaming services and stuff. It just bad timing now so. Yeah, and it's ruining the podcast a little bit. A little bit where we're persevering. Yep.

Jamie: 1:30:19

Um, so do you want to continue talking about Pax latest drop and the mechanics of and stuff? Yeah, we were we were talking about the the coolness of Dows. Like, proudly built the ability for people to trust lessly collaborate and be the equivalent of a big player, even if the individuals are not. Yeah. And yeah, it's just it's it's just an awesome feature of blockchain technology. Web three, Enos. Yeah, I think we're gonna see more and more and more of it as time goes on. I would venture to say you're right. Yeah. Me. I mean, I just saw that big constitution down. Right. That's sort of an example of it. On a date with interesting public scale. You follow the? The price of it afterwards? I mean, yeah. Yes, I did. Pretty interesting. That was ludicrous. Yeah. would have been cool if they bought the Constitution. Yeah, what have been, but instead that very old Trad fi guy was dead, which is sort of a slap in the face. But I think, you know, a lot of people are taking pride in the fact that they made him pay a lot more than he would have otherwise. And then there's also sort of the weird thing where they've decided to make this token worth more money. For No, necessarily real reason. Some would say but, you know, the community or whatever, is possibly a reason that it's a thing. Anyway,

Roy: 1:31:49

yeah. I mean, they raised I think, 40 million or something. 50 million, maybe. The market cap now is 360 million. And at one point, it hit about three times that so a billion dollars, basically. Which is ludicrous.

Jamie: 1:32:07

Yeah, too bad. People couldn't have speculated on it beforehand. They could have definitely won the auction.

Roy: 1:32:12

Imagine that. A billion dollars

Jamie: 1:32:14

sale. Yeah. All right. Let's go to the next question. Crypto Hades. Next question. And last question. crypto. Haidee says, what's their advice for new entrants that may never afford an eight? I mean, I would say the what? I'm sorry, the the stoic answer. I was trying to think of the word stoic or stoicism. Yeah. Their answer would be to not desire an ape. Right. Hmm. That's true. Ultimate, ultimately, if you're never going to be able to afford something. My my truly my number one advice would be don't don't desire or covet that thing. Yeah. Be happy to be part of a different community. Yeah.

Roy: 1:33:00

Yeah. I think. Yeah, I mean, it's like, just because you feel like you might never afford an eight.

Jamie: 1:33:09

I will never forget a fidenza I want one, but I just, I'm never gonna have one. So that's just that's, that's life that exists. Yeah. And FTEs and out of entities. I'd love to have, you know, a mansion on Maui. But I'm not gonna

Roy: 1:33:22

more like a practical uprooted answer. I guess the question is, aside from not desiring on an 81, you could get a mutiny that's way more affordable. And, you know, it still might make you feel similar things to getting a Bored Ape. And perhaps, you know, maybe you can't afford a mutiny. Well, then you could buy another NFT if you want to be part of a community and, you know, still be involved in the NFT. community at large.

Jamie: 1:33:55

Yeah, it was like, it almost seems like a question before the the words they sent us. Yeah. Because it's, it's, it's sort of, um, in implying that they have this specific desire to be part of a community, but they're not explicitly saying it to us.

Roy: 1:34:12

Yeah. Which I mean, it is a great community. But there are plenty of great communities out there. And there are many that haven't even launched, like projects that haven't launched yet. That will be great communities as well. I don't know what else to add to the

Jamie: 1:34:27

Yeah. And if you just want to kind of continue down the path that you are going though, okay, you can't afford the mutant, you could still buy a dog. If you can't afford that you could you could buy some of the merch on eBay or buy some of the coin when that comes out. You there's options to be associated with it that are not as expensive as the if if your one true goal is to be associated with it, which it seems kind of like it is Oh, also like, there's like the ape token like this fractionalized stuff that we were talking about earlier. Those are other other ways to be a part of it in a pretty real sense in that case, too, but for less than the price of a whole one.

Roy: 1:35:06

Yeah. And also, it's, it just could be a great goal to work towards, like, maybe you might be able to afford one now, but you can say, one day, I would like to be able to have an, say a mutant ran, you can do whatever it takes, you know, save money from your real job, say, like, try and find another job, try and find work in the NFT space, become a creative become a paid moderator or community manager on Discord network, find ways to just work towards your goal, you know, trade up in and now you might be able to afford it later. Yeah.

Jamie: 1:35:43

That is an option for sure, there's a

Roy: 1:35:45

ton of opportunity in the space still. And it's if you can't afford something now, it's, I know, some people feel that the price is just gonna keep going up forever, and they'll always be out of reach. But I do think if you work hard and hustle, and you know, there has

Jamie: 1:36:01

not shown totally a truth to right, there's always been big pull backs. And like every single project that we consider successful. Yeah, I saw an interesting thing on Twitter that that this sort of reminds me of where they were basically talking about how insane bitcoins run up has been in the fact that it's basically since inception, compounded at like 220% per year, year after year. And they were sort of saying that it's, it's impossible for something to go up that much at a consistent rate, because it's such a good opportunity that people will lever up and people will get their portfolios disproportionately big in this asset when it as it goes up. Even if they size correctly at the beginning, that there will then have to be an inevitable pullback. So even though the total slope will have it going up 220% per year, it's going to have to go up 1,000% and then go down 70% And, and all this stuff, because as people are rationally acting towards something that's that valuable, they're going to be putting in too much money, or Yeah, like, basically, there's just going to be so much money going into it. And then that is going to send the price up so much that the money is going to have to go out of it even from the people that continue to believe it's the best opportunity out there. Because now it's 98% of their net worth and their net worth is three times bigger than it's ever been before. Yeah, you know, if if they're, they're worried that stuff like apes and stuff are going to be just that valuable in the future and go up that much per year, it's still going to have to be a very bumpy ride, if that turns out to be true. And so on those pull backs. Hopefully you'll have enough at that time to get in. Sorry. Go ahead. Yeah,

Roy: 1:38:04

no, I was just going to add that we haven't really seen a true bear market crash for NFT's yet. We've seen these pretty significant pullbacks, even with the eight 50% Perhaps. But you know, there isn't really true. Leverage possibilities, you know, there's NFT, five p2p loans, some people are using those, but when we have, you know, protocols where people can just get instant liquidity at like 30 or 40% of the full price of their NFT's and, you know, leverage up and, you know, be bullish about the project and make tremendous gains, but then also get liquidated and things come crashing down. We I think we'll eventually inevitably see, like a real bear market, the NFT's that we haven't seen yet.

Jamie: 1:38:47

Yeah, it almost seemed like we kind of got a little like the second that like, you know, defi people started coming in around the pudgy penguins time, like we had like the the sickest end to the bull. And then a really sharp, quick bear with just a little bit of that sort of sloshing around of loose new money.

Roy: 1:39:08

There was a lot of things happening then that was like it was around the same time that the mutants dropped and just sucked $90 million, or whatever loot

Jamie: 1:39:17

was sort of another wall. It was like a ton of money. But then Yeah, it kind of made people question what all of the investments were about anyway, what are we doing here?

Unknown: 1:39:26

Yeah, yeah, it

Jamie: 1:39:27

really it was it was like, It's revolutionary in how awesome it is, but also how stupid it is and how it shines a light on it in a sort of an interesting way. That allowed it to really send the market up and down as people just kind of thought about it more.

Roy: 1:39:44

Yeah, like it's this list of words really worth $80,000

Jamie: 1:39:48

Yeah, probably not. But but it if you try to envision the future where it is. It does help you think about how big and interesting this space can be, because it necessarily to make something like that so valuable. You have to be envisioning this really interesting world that's getting built out in a new way that's having value distributed in a new way. And so that can that can theoretically make you very bullish. Yeah.

Roy: 1:40:20

I mean, clearly, some people did think it was worth$80,000 or more because they were buying 20 or whatever the order to, I guess that was probably like $50,000. Because eth was as high at the time that we were still Yeah, and and

Jamie: 1:40:34

it seemed like it felt like at the time, maybe that the pace of new money coming into the market was just going to be sustained. But that was not the case. Gas went up, things pulled back and, and a lot of these people that came in, I think, from coins, that they're used to having the liquidity when they got into NFT's and weren't able to sell them really quickly. That led to a lot of cascading of of undercutting the floors. Yeah, I think people got a little spooked to get that liquidity that they were used to being able to get easier. Yeah,

Roy: 1:41:09

they're like, Oh, crap, if I undercut now I'll get it wasn't selling like oh, crap. I got got more

Jamie: 1:41:13

rain. Just yeah. Oh, came tumbling down. sort of not really. Yeah. A lot of it stumbled a little bit. It definitely did not all come

Roy: 1:41:25

crumbling down. I mean, especially if you look at it, like USD terms now compared to them, and

Jamie: 1:41:31

tons of projects way higher. Still. That was our last group. Awesome. Oh, yeah.

Roy: 1:41:37

blit notes and blue labs.

Jamie: 1:41:38

I'm so excited for them. It seems Oh, yeah. Have you voted on the villains yet? I haven't yet. Have you? I looked at them. And I've looked a little bit at what people are voting for. But I have not made my tear list myself yet. Yeah. No, I want to do that. They do look cool. They do. Yeah. The whole project seems cool. I'm talking specifically about the villains but the blit knots also. Wow. Yeah. Thanks. Thanks for sticking with us through our four different recordings that we're splicing together in this episode. Yeah, hopefully it's not too painful. Right. But I think we got some good questions and we provide a good answers even if it is a touch of choppiness in the connecting of it all. Yes.

Roy: 1:42:15

Thank you all for the questions every week, or however frequently we do this. We get I mean,

Jamie: 1:42:21

I would say is pretty accurate. But yeah, yeah, great questions. And thanks for listening. All right, thank you. Bye! Two Bored Apes, talking NFT's, De-fi, and some random stuff! uh uh uh uh Two Bored Apes, talking NFT's, De-fi, and some random stuff! uh uh uh uh